1. Feltre

    Wow! I wasn’t questioning you patriotism, just your “facts”. If you study what the founding fathers said about civilian gun ownership and why they wrote the second amendment, it will become clear that their wisdom was much better than our current politicians. I did receive an order that I considered unlawful and I asked my CO for that order in writing.,,no more order. That to me is part of the oath. Questioning your leaders is expected. I would not have taken the oath,as I read and understand it, if I questioned the Constitution.

  2. SDRSr

    Yes, I do question the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, my religion, my leaders, my wife, my children. Speaking nothing of my right to question these and others, if they are not strong enough to withstand the questioning then some thing is fundamentally wrong with them.

    I also took the same oath, … To support and defend … against all enemies, foreign and domestic…, to obey the “Lawful Orders” (you remember that part?) of my superiors and those appointed over me. No where in the oath I took did is say or imply that I could not question.

    We have gotten way off topic here, thus I am ending it. In closing, Lieutenant Colonel do not mistake taking an oath to support and defend as a proscription to question those very same documents and leaders, and never again attempt to intimidate me by trying to impune my patriotism or love for this country.

  3. Feltre


    You clearly didn’t read the whole article. I supports my statement about dimensions and pressures. It doesn’t speak to the damage caused by a .223 but both can use the same full metal jacket bullet and both will yaw on impact with soft tissue. The adapter kits you talk about will get you a felony conviction in any state.

    If you question the reasons a civilian should be able to own an AR then you question the US Constitution. I too have served and retired (O-5) and I took an oath to support and defend that Constitution.

  4. SDRSr

    Oh forgot

    Where did I learn about the .223, 5.65mm, the 7.62mm, 9mm, 45 cal, 50 Cal.

    20 years military, a stretch in Viet Nam.

    Does it make me an authority, not by any stretch of the imagination, it just my experience with the above rounds and their bullet launchers.


    Sorry it is a Wiki article, but it should do and I believe it counterpoints almost all of your issues.

    Yes, a civilian can own an assault weapon, but why do they need one? Are they going to war? With who? Who are they going to going to assault? What animal could be hunted where you would need 30 or 40 round magazine loaded. Additionally, I never said civilians could not own; I said, I am very opposed to any civilian owning/having a military grade weapon. Furthermore, I question the reasons that are given as to why a civilian should have a military grade weapon.

    Working from memory here, but I believe that there is an conversion kit or instructions available for any military style weapon on the market, to make it automatic or function close to.. And those adapter kits do not require a license or a tax stamp or a permit to purchase in many states. Thus all those “single shot, military style” weapons are easily converted to automatic weapons faster that it took me to type this.

    • It was a hellfire trigger kit that got the Branch Dividians targeted by the government in Waco, TX those many years ago. That was what the original warrant was issued for, a mail order conversion kit. And it’s not even fully auto, but fires two rounds with each trigger pull.

      There are two things keeping other nations from invading the USA. First is our nuclear deterrent. Second is our civilian arms. You might change your tune should a Sino-Russian army invade.

    • Want to add, I choose how to best defend my home. You choose how to best defend your home. You are not prepared to defend your home from more than one armed intruder and are condemning others for being more prepared. That’s pretty short sighted when one looks at the multitude of recent home invasions where there are multiple perpetrators. You can’t see the danger. I hope for the best but plan for the worst.

      We have 5 sheriff deputies at any given time of day in my county. A call to the sheriff could take over 20 minutes before they arrive. If five armed perpetrators are trying to enter my home, do you think I might need a 30 round magazine given my poor shooting ability and their use of cover?

  6. Feltre

    Hello SDRSr,

    I am not sure where you got your info about the 5.56 but it is actually very close to the 223 in dimensions and pressures. You can fire a 5.56 round in a weapon chambered for 223 in a pinch but I wouldn’t do it with a new rifle or do it regularly. You can fire 223 in a 5.56 chambered gun all day long. The damage to flesh would be very similar with either round. What differentiates a civilian 223 or 5.56 from a military assault rifle is select fire. If your rifle is not capable of fully automatic fire, no matter how nasty it looks or what it shoots, it is not an assault weapon. A civilian can own a fully automatic assault weapon with a class 3 tax stamp ($200).

  7. SDRSr

    Hi woody188.

    From my experience it takes seconds to drop a mag and load in another. Your being able to convert your .223 (which was the M-16 round, miss spoke with M-15 above, fumble fingers :-} ) to a 5.56mm, I assume NATO Ball, I am opposed to. A new barrel chambered for 5.56 and you have a military assault weapon with one of the nastiest rounds in the world; a round specifically designed and manufactured to inflict massive trauma and death on another human being. No civilian should have a weapon or ammo like that.

    As for trying to quickly load a weapon with a magazine, I have, it just takes seconds – one finger to drop, one hand to insert. To load a mag, just 2 or 3 or 4, 10 round stripper clips, again a few seconds when you really gota get it done quick.

  8. Pablo

    There is some excellent irony here regarding militias and the 2nd Amendment. To follow our Founding Father’s intent, all of these gun-waving zealots that were not facing off against the Feds there should have been “called up” to face those that were. After all, one of Constitutionally-defined duties of our armed citizens was to be called up in times of need, to bear those arms, and to put down insurrections. I think this qualifies.

  9. “We could see more of that if they actually think that the federal government is going to stand down…”

    I’ve been seeing a lot of people posting things like “This is the RIGHT way to use the 2nd Amendment!” and “The federal government will back down when an armed populace stands up for its rights!”

    Folks, the federal government is not afraid of you. Two Apache helicopters would have obliterated all of the militia there in three or four minutes. Assuming that the feds actually were interested in turning the situation violent – and so far the militias and radical conservatives are the only ones who have been talking about doing violence – they’re not afraid of your guns, they’re afraid of footage of a civilian massacre being shown on the news night after night.

    • Jon

      Which implies, oddly enough, that a far greater weapon against an overreaching government is a video camera.

      Far more effective than a gun.

      No wonder the cops love videotaping everyone else and loathe being videotaped themselves.


      • How much film has been lost pried from the hands of the dead and destroyed. One might want to carry both a camera and a firearm.

  10. “Do laws no longer apply when the radical right no longer agrees?”

    That’s not a rhetorical question considering that Bundy said in pre-standoff interview (from 2012, the first time the BLM tried taking his cattle) that he would never obey any federal law. Of course, he said that he would obey local and state laws, but when Clark County told him not to graze on that land (when they turned down his offered payments to the county) he ignored them too.

  11. Sorry woody188, the 5.62mm round is a very nasty bullet, it is balanced, it tumbles when it hits and inflicts massive damage. It was and is designed to do just that cause massive damage to a human body not a varmint’s. It has been described as hitting the little finger and exiting the body on the opposite side of the upper body.

    A 22/.223/.225 is a deadly round in the hands of someone that knows how to shoot.

    Still, I fail to see the need for anybody to load a weapon with 30 or 40 rounds just to shoot varmints. To my way of thinking if you (generic you) have that many, maybe some varmint predators should be re-introduced.

    Yes I am a “city slicker/suburbanite” who likes the outdoors, done some gun and bow hunting in my time, supports gun rights (does not own any) and is very opposed to military grade weapons and ammo in the hands of the public. As many others, I have used those weapons and know they are designed for only one purpose – to inflict damage and death on another human being.

    • Mine is loaded with .223 but I could convert it to a 5.62. I was speaking only for myself. Try to quickly load and magazine and it’s easy to see why one might like to have more rounds per magazine. Loading those things are a pain in the patoot.

  12. Jon

    The land belongs to all of us. He was taking it and its resources for his own personal profit.

    I just cannot see how that’s a ‘freedom’ issue. Tragedy of the Commons issue, perhaps.

    And this, Woody188, is *exactly* why the BLM has a SWAT team. When your opponents are heavily armed and apparently perfectly happy with wielding deadly force, a SWAT team is called for. That’s what they’re for.

    Granted, they are often misused, but this was NOT one of those times.


    • The land ownership is in dispute, and the BLM is using questionable and violent tactics. The BLM showed up with military grade firearms provoking the response from the ranchers. They weren’t armed until the BLM threatened them with violence.

      And the land actually belongs to China now. We’ve collateralized it as part of our debt package to foreign governments, which is probably why the BLM is now so interested in forcing others off the land, so those foreigners can take possession. How’s that make you feel?

  13. The BLM was right to stand down. Why does the BLM have a SWAT team to begin with?

    In fact, why does the State Department, Department of Education, Department of Energy, U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service, and the National Park Service, as well as 69 other Federal agencies all have SWAT teams as well?

    The escalation was due to the BLM sending in armed teams. They have a bad habit of using their SWAT teams in non-violent scenarios. This one could have quickly turned violent. So the BLM pulled out their SWAT team to pursue the case AS IT ALWAYS SHOULD HAVE BEEN PURSUED IN A NON-VIOLENT MANNER.

  14. Pablo


    There are other pictures on the ‘net of that guy from behind him. Just in front of him (100 yards or so) are dozens of people that he had clear field of fire on, and that small crack offers a huge swivel are for a small rifle like his. That jackass needs to be locked up for a few years, along with most of the Bundy supporters that were out there that day.

    It’s like other people are reporting, for some reason a white Christian can’t be considered a terrorist these days, but a black kid just waiting for a school bus can.

  15. SDRSr

    Another observation and another reason to ban assault weapons and multi-round magazines, look at his assault weapon it has a 40 round mag. Now, why would a “normal person” need a weapon with that many rounds, Hell the M-14 and M-15 I carried in Nam only had 20 round mags, dam sure would have loved to of had several banana clips like his.

    The militias actions could be viewed as armed insurrection. Last guy that tried that lies a-moldering in his grave…

    In most place I have been, you point a gun (loaded or unloaded does not matter) at another person it is a felony and can be construed as intent to do bodily harm or attempt murder.

    • It’s probably a 30-round magazine. I have several. I like them because I’m a bad shot and can bag quite a few varmints without having to reload. I’ve never considered myself “normal” so I guess my “normal” rural scenario of shooting rabbits, moles, ground hogs, squirrels, raccoons, possums, skunk, fox, badger, and coyote wouldn’t apply or even be considered by the typical city slicker that isn’t allowed to shoot within city limits. Have to protect the livestock and the children.

      Also, these “weapons” are glorified .22 caliber type firearms. They won’t shoot through cover like the M-14 with the 7.62 round you probably carried, and they can’t be switched to 3-round or fully automatic like the SWAT team firearms can.

  16. Feltre

    This guy was not aiming at much with his sights folded down and his field of fire would have been extremely limited through that crack. I think that he wasn’t aiming at anyone and this was just a publicity photo. The standoff climaxed when an unarmed cameraman approached the BLM and was threatened with deadly force. They didn’t back down because of the militia but because they feared BLM would do something that would look very bad on the news.

  17. Mike

    Bundy needs to pay taxes like everyone else or he can take his cattle to another country and let them graze there. Also, all his armed “supporters” better think twice about standing up to the US Government. If the government wanted to, they’d take all of them out in mere seconds. All they’re doing is making it worse for everyone else who owns weapons…

  18. Personally, I do not care if some rancher uses near by Federal land to graze stock, but they better dam sure pay rent for the privilege.

    Looks like another Whiskey Rebellion is brewing, time for the Revenuers? Or maybe bring in the bean counters to take they down?