Is a ‘Cain Mutiny’ underway in the GOP?

Herman Cain: The new 'Godfather' of the GOP?

Herman Cain is the latest “big thing” for a frustrated Republican Party searching frantically for a contender — any contender — to unseat President Barack Obama.

Meanwhile, former flavor of the month Rick Perry is plummeting in the polls.

A new CBS poll puts former Godfathers Pizza CEO Cain tied with former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney at the top of the crowded GOP field for the presidential nomination.

Romney has 17 percent — up one percent from two weeks ago — while Cain jumped 12 points for a tie for first. Perry fell 11 percentage points — to 12 percent — for third while former Speaker of the House Next Gingrich moved up one point for fourth and Libertarian/populist Ron Paul dropped two points and fell from fourth to fifth.

Michelle Bachmann, Rick Santorum and Jon Huntsman remain backmarkers.

Those surveyed cited Perry’s disappointing debate performances as one of the reasons he has dropped so dramatically in the polls.

But GOP voters remain far from settled in their choice.  Three out of four of those surveyed said its too early for make up their minds and only 19 percent said they have made up their minds.

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26 Responses to "Is a ‘Cain Mutiny’ underway in the GOP?"

  1. woody188  October 5, 2011 at 3:01 pm

    The rumor is that Cain’s staff is jumping ship to work for other campaigns. They don’t have confidence in Cain to pull out a win.

    The “primary Republican” numbers in this poll are based on interviews with 324 people. In the fine print,

    The margin of error for the sample of registered voters could be plus or minus three points and six points for the sample of Republican primary voters. The error for subgroups may be higher.

    Meaning the poll is totally worthless as a measure of true voter intent. But it does help bury the popular candidates in favor of the status quo corporatist candidates.

    I just can’t believe that many people want a 23 percent national sales tax as Cain advocates. I also don’t believe most Americans want war in the Middle East to continue like Cain does. Maybe they don’t know their candidate?

    • Almandine  October 5, 2011 at 8:44 pm

      I’ve listed to Cain on radio for several years now and I find it hard to ascribe globalism as his driving force. In many ways, he’s formed in the original tea party mold, although his positions on the Fed and foreign policy are mainstream.

      As for the 23% Fair Tax, and all that it would replace, what is a better plan? Would elimination of income taxes, payroll taxes, medicare taxes, SS taxes, and corporate income taxes, not be worth the tradeoff for a sales tax on new goods? Especially given the monthly prebate equal to taxes on the essential goods everyone would need?

      Are not the elimination of the IRS and repatriation of the monies held abroad by US corporations a bonus worth making happen, as well? That alone would portend immediate economic acceleration… with all the ancillary benefits to be derived by the working populace… no matter who they work for.

      I don’t see the problem.

      • Jon  October 5, 2011 at 8:51 pm

        Yes, it would not be worth the tradeoff.

        Flat taxes, sales or otherwise, are highly regressive. Regressive taxes are not a good thing.

        And naming it “Fair” does not make it so.

        J.

        • Almandine  October 5, 2011 at 11:30 pm

          And here you come again, Jon, wrongheaded as usual.

          The current tax scheme is as much to blame for our fiscal woes as anything. Only by the tax spoils system have we been divided and stratified so that “regressiveness” pits the payers against the takers. Eliminate the spoils system and free the slaves.

      • woody188  October 6, 2011 at 12:03 pm

        In Ohio we believe it is immoral to charge taxes on food since it is required to sustain life. (Although there is beer, wine, cigarette, and soda pop tax.) That is why we have no sales tax on food in our state. How does that work with Herman Cain’s “fair tax?” Does Mr. Cain exempt food from his tax scheme?

        • Almandine  October 6, 2011 at 12:55 pm

          The prebate would cover the amount of tax on all essentials, not just food. A question does arise, though… is Escargot taxed? Filet mignon? Caviar?

          • woody188  October 6, 2011 at 4:57 pm

            Indeed. :) And it’s not like I have another candidate that is better to hold up against him, or that I even have faith in our voting system at this point in time.

            I have to admit, I had to look up the prebate. Does this seem to you more an effort at population control, rewarding smaller family units that consume less goods versus being a true progressive tax structure?
            It basically allows only $900 per year per child which is less than what the child deduction is now. (They are talking of reducing that deduction back to $500.00 per child.) It has been shown that most financially secure families do not have many children.
            The other problem is of course inflation distorting the percentage taken. High inflation results in higher taxation. This would particularly devastating during a period of stagnant wages such as now. Government is already encouraged to inflate the money supply (think of the housing bubble and property taxes) and doesn’t need more encouragement to do so.
            The term “Annual Consumption Allowance” sounds very socialist. Why should anyone but me decide what I should be consuming per year?
            Seems pretty anti-capitalist too, threatening our GDP which is largely consumer driven. I see a huge hit to the entertainment industry. If I can pay zero taxes by not going to movies or buying music and video games, I might just do that. Certainly makes private piracy (downloading and not selling the works) more appealing.

            • Almandine  October 6, 2011 at 9:47 pm

              Guess it’s hard to find any plan that passes muster. Wonder what yours would be…

              Don’t understand the population control angle, nor the fact that “progressivism” is necessarily good policy, if it promotes dependency. Clearly, the tax proposed is more flat than anything, until large expenditures kick in. I also don’t see how any of this tells you “what to consume or how much”.

              Everything available to consumers now has embedded taxes that are passed through to the buyer, and inflation raises both prices and taxation. Thus, how will taxes on the final product – and not intermediate product stages – threaten GDP?

              Methinks your populist ideology is getting in the way of your analysis.

              • woody188  October 8, 2011 at 11:12 pm

                I guess I just see the rich buying outside of the USA to avoid taxes if a “fair tax” was ever enacted leaving us worse off than now.

                I’m not looking for global, national, or even statewide solutions. My solution is to take care of family and screw the rest. My only plan is to hunker down and hope it all blows over quickly! ;)

      • woody188  October 6, 2011 at 12:10 pm

        Likewise, aren’t the “mainstream” policies on the Fed and foreign policy what mostly separates a neo-conservative/globalist from a classic conservative?

        It can be shown that, given the opportunity, business would not repatriate the money held abroad because the United States is not expected to have the explosive growth that is expected in the developing world. The only reason they would bring the money home at a discount is to line the pockets of the executives and board while keeping the majority of the hiring overseas.

        I liked Cain at first too. But the more he speaks, the more he sounds just like another that would keep the current status quo.

        • Almandine  October 6, 2011 at 1:21 pm

          My “mainstream” comment was lacking, as I meant he was more of a mainstream conservative than neo-con, which is more broadly mainstream. It seems he is clearly outside the neo-con ideology.

          As for repatriation, there is already a movement afoot to return many corporate jobs to the US; favorable tax treatment could only stimulate that. Again, clearly… the current system isn’t working.

          Otherwise, just wondering what kind of far out things he “could” say and still have a chance at election? His actual message thus far is based on his “solutions” to today’s morass, something no one else is talking about much.

          It will be fun to watch.

          • Jon  October 6, 2011 at 9:48 pm

            I suppose I have high hopes of you once addressing my arguments, Almadine, instead of a simple ‘wrong!’ answer unsupported by anything remotely resembling reasoning, but here I go again…

            Repatriation. Isn’t that a reward for having dodged taxes by putting money overseas, and now getting another reward in the form of ducking taxes for bringing it back? I don’t see how that’s going to encourage anything besides more overseas tax sheltering.

            It might stimulate a few jobs for a few international money managers, but I don’t think that’s what you had in mind.

            The current system has problems. I don’t think anyone is arguing that it is perfect as it is now. I suspect, however, that throwing out the whole thing and replacing it with something indubitably simpler, yet definitively worse, is a step in the right direction.

            And as you did not address the last time, here’s it again, broken down.

            1) Mr. Cain’s proposed sales tax is a flat tax.

            2) Flat taxes are regressive.

            3) Regressive taxes are unfair.

            Therefore, Mr. Cain’s proposals are unfair, despite what he’s calling them.

            Any argument there? Pick any axiom…

            J.

            • Almandine  October 6, 2011 at 11:08 pm

              As Bastiat would say… there is what is seen and what is not.

              The Fair Tax, levied on sales, is a consumption tax, and as it is proposed it has attributes that make it more progressive than not: 1) It exempts essential needs, 2) it proactively provides rebates, and 3) those 2 factors combine to provide some degree of gradation beyond a mere flat tax. The upshot is that the tax falls heaviest on those who consume more. Importantly, savings are not taxed at all, the combination of which means that a unit of work yields a greater return.

              In contrast, income taxes provide disincentive to work, especially with regard to the inflation being discussed above, which not only lowers productivity but also reduces savings that could be used to support economic growth. The need for unemployment “compensation” abounds.

              Of course, these are only the immediate influences on individual taxation, with added benefits of a consumption tax that accrue to business, which would find it profitable to end the pass-thru of embedded business income taxes that consumers now pay anyway.

              (Ever wonder what will happen if the tax subsidies to those bad old oil companies are repealed? How about higher gas prices to cover the shortfall?)

              So it’s always pay me now or pay me later… but at what cost? Returning to Bastiat, I’d rather see many more jobs, with many more people employed and paying a fair tax on their consumption above essential needs, than maintaining the status quo which is surely wrought with fraud, corruption, and disincentive… hidden in the rhetoric of “fairness”.

              • Jon  October 7, 2011 at 12:57 am

                Your discussion of ameliorating factors have basically admitted that it is a flat tax. Why should we start with something so fundamentally flawed and ‘try to make it better with exemptions and rebates’?

                So I’d say my axiom #1 stands quite well.

                Would you care to address #2?

                J.

                PS – Oh, and I didn’t mention income tax at all. Why do you keep dragging other things into this? J.

                PPS – Look at the exemptions you have already written into it and just imagine the cheerful ways every legal eagle in the biz can find a new and different loophole. What you are proposing is not simplicity, by any means! J.

                • Almandine  October 7, 2011 at 9:06 am

                  I disagree with you premise and said why… as I did above, as well, which you seem to have overlooked. Typical.

                  In addition, the flat tax is almost always discussed in terms of changes to the income tax system, thus its juxtaposition.

                  The Fair Tax would be called a marginal flat tax, since it’s only on discretionary purchases in excess of essential needs. In fact, if I don’t need as much as others, perhaps I will get over on that too, but I could need more, so I pay. All of which means that when discussing fairness, I don’t pay for your stuff… nor you, mine.

                  The issue here is the same as always: you believe in the supremacy of govt as nanny state, the Robin Hood model… and we see where that has gotten us.

                  I don’t, and am searching for a better way forward. As I said to Woody, what’s yours?

                  • Jon  October 8, 2011 at 2:09 am

                    I do not think you said what I think you just said you said. Consumption taxes are flat taxes. Is that so?

                    And no, the issue is not what you say it is.

                    You said, “The issue here is the same as always: you believe in the supremacy of govt as nanny state, the Robin Hood model… and we see where that has gotten us.”

                    That is not the issue. I did not say that. You have invented this issue.

                    What I said is here are three axioms and from them a logical conclusion. You have not addressed them at all.

                    Have fun.

                    J.

                    • Almandine  October 8, 2011 at 10:47 pm

                      And you’re full of it.

                      What I wrote fully addressed your # 2, not so’s you could tell, it seems.

                    • Almandine  October 9, 2011 at 8:38 am

                      Nor did you school us with your Better Tax Plan…

  2. Danny Adams  October 6, 2011 at 8:22 pm

    By the way, Cain just said this week that if you’re unemployed and poor, instead of blaming Wall Street you should “blame yourself”. So those of you out there who are either or both, if you were wondering why, now you know.

    • Almandine  October 6, 2011 at 11:16 pm

      So tell us… what fault do you find with a person being responsible for his/her own situation in life?

  3. Carl Nemo **==  October 6, 2011 at 11:12 pm

    Although this may sound racist, Cain doesn’t have a snowballs chance in hell of being elected regardless of what ‘obamapromises’ issue from his pizza stuffed mouth.

    He’s black like Obama. American voters including the majority of disenfranchised blacks are not going for another round of a black man at the helm of state. They’ve been traumatized by their current black ‘liar in chief’ and simply will not trust Cain and his proferred, ‘jive turkey’ schemes.

    Carl Nemo **==

    • Almandine  October 7, 2011 at 9:09 am

      It didn’t sound racist til the “jive turkey” thing. Otherwise, you’re just humongously jaded, as usual.

      • Carl Nemo **==  October 7, 2011 at 12:17 pm

        I’ve explained many times Almandine that I write for “impact”; I.E., to get readers attention from webspeak lethargy. I’m not jaded, but simply a pragmatist by voting for Obama. McCain was obviously a poor to worse choice in 2008. Obviously I made a grave mistake using such a decision process. To me Cain will simply be another four year mistake that we’ll have to suffer while he scores bigtime for his corporate sponsors, ignoring the need to curtail offshoring in some constructive fashion and encourage the rebirth of our domestic manufacturing base.

        I’ll not vote for a D or R again and will simply focus on local bond, fire, schools, environment etc.issues. All pols are highly suspect in these seeming end times for the Republic. They’re in it for personal gain…period!

        Carl Nemo **==

  4. Senegoid  October 8, 2011 at 8:04 am

    Carl: “He’s black like Obama. American voters including the majority of disenfranchised blacks are not going for another round of a black man at the helm of state.”

    But then again who better to take the blame for the Titanic:

    • Carl Nemo **==  October 8, 2011 at 12:16 pm

      Thanks Senegoid for this timely and brilliant piece of humor offered on the part of Muhammad Ali. What’s most interesting is that he felt this way during the Nixon era over 40 years ago. Compared to that era, I’d say that shipworms have eaten out the USS America’s hull by our times. We’ve taken on water in all compartments while the white, behind the scenes movers and shakers have installed a ‘chump’ for the voyage to the bottom.

      Seemingly Obama never saw the clip or he would have thought twice about jumping at the ‘opportunity’ of being the first black president of a vessel seemingly preordained to sink.

      Mr. Cain needs to watch this clip. At the rate we’re taking on water, I don’t even see November 2012 on the horizon, then again under martial law, post collapse, Obama will be dictator for life over their engineered ‘banana republic’. / : |

      Carl Nemo **==

  5. Senegoid  October 8, 2011 at 7:19 pm

    I must admit Carl I had a giggle when I watched Ali’s use of metaphor – nevertheless poignant.

    Hope you and yours are doing well in these interesting times.

    Cheers mate

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