State of Dis-union

As State of the Union speeches go, President Barack Obama’s overwrought, overlong and over-hyped seventy-one minute lecture Wednesday night was not very spectacular, not very stirring and not in touch with reality.

Bill Clinton delivered much better State of the Union speeches. Clinton could speak for hours and keep people interested. Camers showed even Democrats dozing off during Obama’s long, boring lecture.

The President promised to create jobs. He’s promised that before. Hasn’t happened.

He promised to end discrimination against gays in the military. He’s promised that before. Hasn’t happened.

He promised to bring affordable health care to Americans. Been there, heard that, hasn’t happened.

He promised a bi-partisan approach to governing. Won’t happen. Neither party wants to work together with the other side. Doesn’t fit with their political agendas.

The clockers and watchers in Washington said Obama’s SOTU speech would be an opportunity to recapture the old magic.

If anything, the speech shows Obama’s magic is gone, kaput, missing in action.

To his credit, he took blame for some of his mistakes. He admitted failure, something you don’t usually hear from a politician.

But he President that many hoped would rise to the job is drowning in a sea of mistakes, missteps and miscalculations. He is the black Jimmy Carter, the George H.W. Bush of the Democratic Party, the President destined for one, failed term, squandering so much promise and so much hope.

The President who promised to divide America has — if anything — generated greater divisions. Last year, a Republican Congressman broke decorum and shouted “you lie” during Obama’s speech to a joint session of Congress. This year, the chief justice of the Supreme Court mouthed “not true” when Obama discussed the court’s recent decision on allowing unlimited corporate contributions to campaigns. Such things didn’t happen before the Obama era. Even Democrats openly buck their President.

The Barack Obama who appeared before the nation Wednesday night is, if anything, a caricature of himself, a shell of the man who mesmerized a nation in 2008.

“I don’t quit,” Obama told us.

Too bad.

Maybe he should.


  1. Carl Nemo

    Rest assured logtroll, I’m perceptive enough to know that you are not an enemy of this site or its posters. I have a steeltrap memory and recall other posts you’ve made. I like your thought processes. : )

    My summation is that you are a standup, “good guy” that I could depend upon in a pinch; ie., combat or otherwise. : )

    Just get it in in your head that this nation “is toast” and there’s to be no redemption whatsoever.

    As to what I do to ‘fix things’ is to email, snail mail, call their offices and attend ‘town hall’ meetings of my reps; ie., all three, my district rep, Brian Baird and my two state Senators Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell all three democrats Washington State.

    Guess what, they aren’t listening to guys like me or you within your respective state! These three have never met a U.S. tax dollar that they couldn’t say no to and as to how these “tasty” pulled pork sandwiches might be consumed, courtesy of the ~U.S.Treasury “deli”! /: |

    I may sound like the cynic’s cynic, but Obama’s calling out the Supreme Court was all for grand theater, nothing more, nothing less! It makes us feel like our ‘dear leader’ is a friend of “We the people” and the Republic; but rest assured, he’s not. He’s one uv’em…period!

    Carl Nemo **==

  2. logtroll

    Okay, Griff and Nemo,

    We all are in substantial agreement of the Big Picture. So, what I don’t get is, when the disappointingly milquetoast Obama stands up and gives a “show some sack” speech, why does everyone want to throw shit at him? Sure, it’s a lot of speechifying. Yeah,it’s political. But it’s politics, ain’t it? What I heard in that speech is, the Supremes don’t understand that a piece of paper does not make a person, the R’s are a bunch of pouting babies, and the D’s are spineless wimps. I agree with that.

    Can he be Obama the Messiah and change all that? Ha ha! But at least he said it. If the audience didn’t find it sobering, then I guess they are too damn drunk to care.

    Just curious, what would you have said in a SOTU speech if it was your job to make one?

    One thing I’ve learned over the past twenty years (the little guy on my shoulder is heckling me, “Idiot, you haven’t learned much of anything”) is that I NEVER make any progress against the machine when I resort to yelling at it.

    When the machine is broke, you can either hitch up your pants and get the tools out, or you can pour diesel on it and strike a match. Diesel and a match is guaranteed to get you change but it will also put you out of business.

    I think the basic idea of democracy is to work on it, no matter how frustrating it might be.

    Hang in there, guys.

  3. griff

    Hmmm…Now you got me thinking. If I were to give a State of the Union Address I would make it short and simple so as not to embarrass my apparently sleep-deprived colleagues. A couple of lines would suffice.

    Dear Americans,

    As your President, I am well aware of your unhappiness with your government. You have been screwed over and over. I stand before you tonight to deliver this important message…

    You ain’t seen nothing yet!

  4. bryan mcclellan

    Dear reluctant participants, It’s always been plan A, no plan B….
    “Laughter”, subsides into category.
    The least of effort, desire, commitment, sustains purgatory..

    There are worse amongst than any name able to label just one more instance of our mis-placed insistence, bored them again… Til we must say…
    Lately down the barrel , that ain’t right….Hack

  5. Carl Nemo

    “So, what I don’t get is, when the disappointingly milquetoast Obama stands up and gives a “show some sack” speech, why does everyone want to throw shit at him?”…extract from post

    I’ve given some thought to your question logroll and I think I have the answer.

    Why are people so eager to throw dung at our leaders is simply the fact that they all “talk the talk, but never walk the walk”.

    This guy has had a year to show us his stuff, but invariably he takes the same course as those before him.

    Since I have a military background I can tell you as “Commander in Chief” he has the sole power to summarily end the hostilities in Iraq and Afghanistan without having to answer to any of the ands, ifs, or buts from his General staff or the MIC toadies on the National Security Council.

    Generals have a vested interest in maintaining conflicts and are also beholding to the MIC in hopes of nailing down cush executive level jobs post retirement from the military. So there’s an inherent conflict of interest on their part.

    Instead they will advise him every which way imagineable as to why we must continue to stay in Iraq and slog around Afghanistan looking for terrorists in order to continue the obscene moneyflow to the MIC.

    Has Obama done so…nope! Instead he foolishly listens to their continual complex screed and analysis as to why we must continue on.

    Now he’s considering a freeze on spending, but rest assured there’s no freeze intended for the MIC with it’s now obscenely bloated 700 plus billion per annum budget. Our MIC and active military forces spend more than 44 other nations on earth combined including Russia and China. We’re flat, dead broke as a nation, but he refuses to change course. Why so, because he’s just more of the same; ie, a “team player” and a also deadly hazard to the well-being of the United States of America.

    It takes Congress to authorize or declare war, but the Commander in Chief can end it with the stroke of pen without their permission. This act alone would save hundreds of billions of dollars, but again it will not be done.

    The healthcare bill has turned out to be a medical corporatists dream come true with the entire bill to be administered in a punitive fashion if citizens don’t fork over huge premiums along with high deductibles to a cabal of medical insurers who’ve greased the palms of their patrons in Congress and also massaged this President to play ball with them on this evil piece of legislative garbage.

    The mega-insurers and bankers have skinned this nation of almost a 100 billion bucks of taxpayer money and they still arrogantly continue business as usual. Believe it or not the president has the power to implement emergency Executive Orders that can virtually seize control of the banking and insurance industries with the stroke of a pen…period! Possibly not forever, but just long enough for the FBI, SEC and forensic accountants to tear them a new butthole as to their business practices etc. Then to round up the criminals, bring them to justice, reorganize the banks under new draconian statutes then to be turned loose again to provide safe, sound banking and insurance for the citizens of this country.

    Will this President do so. Nah, why so, because he too has been compromised by their activities and ‘grease’ that migrates it’s way into party coffers.

    So logtroll et al. in answer to your question, that’s why us frustrated citizen/monkeys throw poop at the guy as we did Bush/Cheney because it’s always business as usual with no light at the end of the tunnel for “We the people” regardless of their feelgood rhetoric to the contrary…! : |

    Carl Nemo **==

  6. logtroll

    Here’s the rub… I can’t decide whose rhetoric is emptiest. I am not in disagreement on your assessments of the situation. But when the dust of hard blowing from all directions settles, I’m still the same monkey in a cage with all of you guys.

    I consider the macro issues well identified but haven’t a clue as to what anyone is proposing as an action item re: a “zoo break”. My old friend Robert (and his trusty rules of order, reviled by anarchists everywhere) suggests that someone put a motion on the table for discussion, proposing a next step.

    I, for one, haven’t eaten well for some time, and alimentary logic dictates that I’m running low on quality throwing-turds.

  7. griff

    I would urge every one to read Anthony Gregory’s take on the Address.

    An excerpt…

    Here’s another thing that doesn’t add up for me. Obama says, with some validity: “By the time I took office, we had a one-year deficit of over $1 trillion and projected deficits of $8 trillion over the next decade. Most of this was the result of not paying for two wars, two tax cuts, and an expensive prescription drug program.”

    Let me get this straight. Medicare and war profligacy brought on the crisis, and so we will “freeze” spending, except for Medicare and war—and also except for Social Security and Medicaid? Huh?

    Obama touts his escalation of war in Afghanistan, a war the U.S. should have never waged and should have in any event ended some time in 2001 or 2002, once it was clear Osama bin Laden had escaped. This war, of course, is being vastly expanded beyond what Bush indicated he would do with it, and it’s just as much a fiscal nightmare as Bush’s warmaking. As for Iraq, Obama is sticking by his promise to adhere to the time table set by the Status of Forces Agreement acceded to by Bush in late 2008. No sign of change there. And by avoiding the issues of contractors, the permanent military bases, what exactly non-combat soldiers are supposed to be doing there, he is taking credit for the status quo that he inherited.”

  8. Carl Nemo

    Good analysis on your part Griff, but I’m so burnt out by the lies that issue from politicians’ mouths that all I equate it too is soap bubbles popping in short order after leaving their lying lips.

    Yep; e.g.,a “change we can believe in” bubble, then in short order~~~”pop”~! 😕

    Carl Nemo **==

  9. Stratocaster

    I’m still trying to figure out who we are in debt to? If Washington or Wall Street needs more money, the Federal Reserve prints it. It is our money. How can we be in debt to ourselves? So we borrowed some from the Chinese. Where did the Chinese get it? From us. It all sounds like bullshit to me. A vast plot to maintain power over the masses and keep them as wage slaves. The Emancipation Proclamation freed the Negros. How about a bill to free us White Folks.

  10. almandine

    For one, we owe the FED. They are not “us”. They just give us paper “money” that we promise to make good on when they want it paid back.

    Two, we owe those who hold T-bills and US bonds, which includes you and me, as well as a boatload of foreign govts. China has a trillion bucks worth, or so. Japan close to that. We owe more to Britain, Germany, Saudi, pick one.

    Three, we’ve guaranteed to pay a ton of loans, mortgages, etc., should the debtors fail to pay.

    It ain’t pretty.

  11. Kent.Shaw

    “The Barack Obama who appeared before the nation Wednesday night is, if anything, a caricature of himself, a shell of the man who mesmerized a nation in 2008.”

    Precisely, a caricature of himself as President. It’s like the (our) minders haven’t reloaded his brain’s operating system from Candidate 1.0 to President 1.0 and Candidate 1.0 has no clue how to cope with the real world, a whole ‘nother world from the campaign trail. The software just keeps spitting out the same platitudes and the train remains hellbound.

    His is a classic cheap paperback novel story of the meteoric rise of a heretofore unknown politician as well, looking back, rising out of nowhere to the US Senate, and then to challenge for the presidency after one term, right out of the Classic Chicago Democratic Political Party Machine for pete’s sake (red flags anyone, I mean come on, that’s Daley country), proclaiming presidential campaign promises the oppositie of his votes for all military spending bills and authorizations to use military force and repressive actions like the patriot act in the senate, the military commissions act (anyone inside of or outside of the US can be branded ‘terrorist’ by the president and subsequently be arrested and held without charges for an indeterminate amount of time without any right to see the government’s evidence, if it exists, and without trial), amnesty for the illegal spying by phone companies at the request of our many alphabet spy agencies, ad infinitum.

    Not that I’m complaining. You’re doing a heck of a job, Barack O.

  12. Kent.Shaw

    “Let me get this straight. Medicare and war profligacy brought on the crisis, and so we will “freeze” spending, except for Medicare and war—and also except for Social Security and Medicaid? Huh?”

    and then something magical happened

  13. Kent.Shaw

    Your comments are frighteningly accurate in my opinion. Add the phrase ‘principal with interest’ everywhere in your comment after the word ‘owe’ and the extended amount is unbearable to consider. This can not end well.

  14. almandine

    I couldn’t agree more… except for the doing a heck of a job part:(

    But then again, it’s so tough to go from beta version to full roll out.

  15. Carl Nemo

    Hi Almandine,

    I think Kent’s fecetious reference for doing a heckuva job is a take on G.W. Bush saying the same to Mike Brown concerning his performance as FEMA director during hurricane Katrina, later to be dumped by Bushco.

    “Yur doin a heckuva job “Brownie”…:))

    Unfortunately “We the people” can’t dump this presidential “Brownie” for three more years… : (

    Carl Nemo **==

  16. almandine

    Hey Carl –

    Yeah, I know. I’m kinda tired today and just didn’t have much snappy reparte’ in response. Kent’s point is well taken, though, as is yours.

    I was interested in your exchange with Griff about the home front and all… your’s is a nice part of the country. I’ve driven around up that way a couple of times – once took a motorcycle trip from OKC up thru Colorado, Wyoming, Montana to Lake Louise and back down thru the Okanagan before heading to the coast and down into Oregon, Cal, and back home. One of my favorite memories.


  17. bryan mcclellan

    Many taped inaction’s,
    many more on display.
    Lever action Caliber below comprehension.
    Nice Harry died with Judge Roy Bean..

    P.S. Hillary wants to QUIT.

  18. Stratocaster

    If the FED is not us, it is not part of this country, and the people of this country have not promised to pay it anything. So the FED is bankrupt and the people of this country can find a different form of currency to use. There you have it. Free at last. Wall Street kiss our grits.

  19. Stratocaster

    I’ve always traded in rocks and beaver pelts, and I’ll be damned if anyone is going to stop me. I’ve never considered the District of Columbia to be part of the United States, and I’m not going to bedictated to by a foreign power.

  20. curmudgeon

    State of the Union
    It appears to me that the president addressed most of the important issues facing the country, and presented his position.
    Agree or disagree, there were no major points of concern that Mr. Obama avoided.

    “Even Democrats openly buck their President.” I would hope so.

    I wonder what Doug would have had the president say, besides apologizing for being a failure?

  21. griff

    Don’t they serve coffee before these things? Maybe they should have Big Pharma reps handing out uppers to these tired politicians as they saunter in for the spectacle.

    This President is a joke. This Congress is a joke. We’ve heard this rah-rah-rah bullshit for decades now in various forms and fashions.

    I thought embarassment for my government couldn’t get any worse after Bush. I was wrong.

  22. Stratocaster

    Unfortunitly, he will never quit talking, but people stopped listening long ago. A styrofoam man in a suit with a tape recorder for a voice surrounded by styrofoam pillars.

  23. griff

    Hey look at the bright side – it wasn’t Biden up there.

    Styrofoam pillars – I like it. Sounds like a good name for a tune.

  24. Carl Nemo

    The reason they are asleep is the whole day has been a “balloon and cookie party” fest of swilling donuts and coffee, eating rich, greasy high caloric foods while endlessly discussing how to waste ever more tax dollars and to acquire even more power over us.

    The woman in the photo is I believe Janet Napolitano the head of Homeland ‘Insecurity’.
    Yep, she’s fit as a fiddle, her mind sharp as a tack and no doubt the very best our “dear leader” could fetch to defend this nation from them dad-gummed terrists…no?! / : |

    Carl Nemo **==

  25. Carl Nemo

    I meant to compliment you Doug for summing up the “State of the Onion” address very succinctly with your summation; ie,…


    “I don’t quit,” Obama told us.

    Too bad.

    Maybe he should.


    Carl Nemo **==

  26. neondog

    I thought the speech did a pretty decent job of reminding us of the “rat’s nest” he inherited.

    You know the “rat’s nest” WE the electorate build for him.

    But for some, I suppose, the “Magic Negro’s wand didn’t produce results fast enough.

  27. Carl Nemo

    Yep neondog and so too he was eager to milk us for 787 billion in so-called ‘stimulus money’ after we’d already been conned and mightily damaged as a nation as a function of the Bushista’s plea for TARP money which the “Magic Negro” endorsed prior to his inauguration.

    He’s shown zero independence in both thought and action since taking office. Methinks he’s a presidential version of “Uncle Tom”. In fact he’s surrounded himself with retreads from the past many of which are linked to this nation’s challenging crises we face today. Get it in your head…he’s one uv’em…! : |

    Carl Nemo **==

  28. neondog

    Uncle Tom? From the anonymous “NEMO”.
    Say It Loud Say It Proud…virtual racism and high pitched anonymous whining is so yesterday.

  29. Carl Nemo

    Yo neondog…

    Sir/Madam?…I didn’t use “Uncle Tom” as a racial epithet but its relevance to a subvervient mindset;ie., this President’s subservience to his white “massa/controllers”.

    Evidently you aren’t well read enough to know the history concerning the term “Uncle Tom” as no doubt many folks. I suggest you enroll in a RIF (Reading is Fundamental) program and get the book from your local public library and glue your nose in the tome. Then report back to me.

    As for anonymity, I have personal family reasons for remaining anonymous that’s frankly none of your business other than I have responsibilites to my brothers, one a defense contractor and another on active duty, a high ranking officer involved with the serious business of defending this nation.

    Carl Nemo **==

  30. Senegoid

    “He sang as if he knew me
    In all my dark despair
    And then he looked right through me
    As if I wasn’t there
    And he just kept on singing
    Singing clear and strong

    Killing me softly with his song”

    If barbiturate Obama is that good at putting people to sleep then maybe he would do better in the healthcare industry or as an undertaker.

  31. Carl Nemo

    Yur one smart, feisty man Griff McTavish.:D That’s exactly why I called it the “Onion”… :)) It also swaps out with “union” perfectly and it is a cryin’ shame proposition for sure… : |

    Nemo **==

  32. logtroll

    Normally I enjoy the witty, and witless, repartee on this site. Sometimes there are even flashes of insight. But this thread is uncomfortably vacuous.

    I almost didn’t watch the speech, mostly because I think the Prez has not shown much leadership, however that might have been wasted on the legislative branch. After the speech I am still not at all confident that his leadership will manifest. But before the SOTU I was telling my wife that if all he did was to call on the chickenshit electeds to “sack up”, then I’d be encouraged. He did that. He even sucker punched the Supremes for their outrageous insult to us citizens. Go ‘Bama!

    So boys, I’d recommend the same for all of us, “SACK UP YOU POMPOUS BASTARDS!”, and try to contribute something to solve our problems. Are you running for office in your community? Are you volunteering in any way? Are you speaking out with solutions, or just taking potshots at folks who are sticking their necks out?

    It’s not easy. But that’s not an excuse for standing on the sidelines and throwing turds like some monkey in the zoo. Capitol Hill Zoo, ha ha!

    I’d like to read some good proactive stuff on this site once in a while.

    Gordon West

  33. griff

    End the Fed. End the wars. End the bailouts. End NAFTA. End GATT. End corporatism. End torture and rendition. End derivatives. End speculation. End the police state.

    Legalize the Constitution!

    That enough for ya?

  34. Carl Nemo

    Yo logtroll…

    Hey, it’s fun throwing monkey turds in the Capitol Hill Zoo!

    Btw, you seem to be a new monkey in our cage so show us yur stuff! Splaaaaat!…hey you missed…:D

    Yeah that’s right, how about some serious thoughts from your brow on how to save the USS America from going to the bottom. I’ve run out of “Mighty Putty” as seen on TV ideas as how to plug the hull that’s now taking on water in all holds as we list heavily to port then what…?! I’m breathlessly awaiting with both a wrench and torch in hand for your lifesaving commands Captain. : |

    Carl Nemo **==

  35. neondog

    Nemo, my sincerest apologies: I was not aware of the high station you held in life.
    If I had known how important you were I would not have used the term racist. I would have instead referred to your comments has superior or just plain bigotted.

    Dude/Dudette, In the real world, not this play world you hang out in, call a guy an Uncle Tom and he will stick that TOME up your a.s.s.

    I know, I know….in your day job you’re a kung fu master….

    Now take your specious arrogance and go find a wet paper bag.

  36. Carl Nemo

    What I find fascinating with your somewhat angry, peevish rebuttal to my suggestion of englightening yourself concerning the term “Uncle Tom” is that you were the one that dropped the quasi-epithet, first quipped from the lips of Rush Limbaugh; ie., “Magic Negro”. / : |

    Possibly you my friend are one of Rush’s ardent followers, surely not myself and most others on this site…no?!

    Your apology is accepted… : )

    Carl Nemo **==

  37. issodhos

    I suspect that the list of actions you provide is not what is usually meant when someone uses the “So, what have you done lately” tactic because to follow and impliment what you suggest would result in a smaller, less intrusive federal government versus a list of actions that involve greater, more inttrusive government action.

    In other words, some folks simply will not accept the concept of not involving government, or the concept that sometimes it is just best to do nothing. The idea of minding one’s own business tends to be less and less appealing the more someone discovers the power to use government to force their neighbors to live as they wish them to live.

  38. Carl Nemo

    Hi issodhos,

    I owe you an apology in that I rarely reply to your posts. Your posts in most cases are “thought ballast” and it’s appreciated.

    You have a calming influence to the site and I both enjoy and appreciate your signature salutation; ie, …”Yours, issodhos”… : )

    Carl Nemo **==

  39. logtroll

    As much as I like the “Insult Exchange”, there comes a time to call bullshit. I think my reaction to the uselessness of this thread (though therefrom may come usefulness) comes from knowing that Doug will probably recognize that demeaning the POTUS for trying to call out the chronic impotence of the Democrats and the destructiveness of the Republicans, as a leader should, is unworthy of ridicule. I think upon reflection he might have some regrets about that tomorrow, having once been in the craziness of active politics himself.

    Think about it, what can any of us do to solve the big issues? Not a helluva lot. That includes Obama, all the senators, all the representatives, all of us. Yet we rant away and blame whoever for whatever as if it means something, and we pretend to be significant by expressing our anger. Impotence begets fear begets anger. Is that all there is to CHB?

    I asked what do you do to fix things. Perhaps if we all temper the angry fun once in a while and think of and share something useful that we actually do to address the issues, maybe there will be a shift in attitude away from fear and impotence. I am a small businessman in the construction and wood products fields. I cut and use trees from the local forest (Logtroll, get it?). This condition causes me to be involved in sometimes politically charged situations with the Forest Service, a seemingly benign arm of the Gummit. Most of the issues that arise that cause me heartburn have little to do with “Big Government” or any of Griff’s list of do-away-with-this solutions. The issues are predominantly human interactions. I could do a very toasty rant about “them” and in fairness I suppose them could rant toastily about me. Still, we work together and shit happens.

    After more than several decades I am sometimes surprised to look back and see how far we have come, me and the Freddies, even though I’m not satisfied about where we are. Even more shocking is that my influence is evident in several Acts of Congress and some of my logger-sense techniques for productive FS-community processes have been adopted for widespread use (apparently I invented the “Zone of Agreement” method for moving enviro-industry-forest service stalemates off of the dime).

    Am I famous for my contributions? Hell no. Because it happens that I wasn’t the only person working on these particular and insignificant issues, even though I often thought I was on my own. It seems that it often happens that unknown movements are afoot in some undercurrent way that collectively result in sea-shifts in attitude. My favored analogy comes from a bit of theory relating to environmental change called “cumulative effects”. Taken separately, individual effects on the environment are insignificant but at some point a massive shift occurs. I bet you all think I’m talking about climate change… nyahhhh! I’m thinking of road building and soil disturbance from logging and the effects on the hydrologic regime of a watershed. Like the farmboy who went out and lifted the newborn calf every day, one day he couldn’t do it. Negative ce’s eventually result in catastrophic failure.

    Cumulative effects work in the positive direction as well. Probably even with government and cultural reform. It may seem like nothing results from your individual efforts to cause positive change, but it sure as hell won’t happen if you don’t do anything. Nobody is going to do it for you. Obama can’t do it for you, the Dems can’t do it for you, and the Repubs can’t do it for you.

    If all you’ve got is vitriol, you’re definitely part of the negative cumulative effects machine.

    But there’s nothing wrong with throwing some monkey shit where it might stick. Folks who are serious all the time are a major downer, dude!.

  40. griff

    With all due respect, sometimes that’s all you got left is monkey poo. This is such a thread.

    As far as actually doing something, I support candidates that support these endeavors. I support Campaign for Liberty and am preparing to support and campaign for an Independent candidate to oust our entrenched Democrat representative in the House – a 25 year old veteran of the Iraq debacle.

    I participate on this site for the sole purpose of injecting new – or might I say long forgotten – ideas into the tired procession of partisan pablum. If that makes me useless in your eyes, then so be it.