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1. Jim C

   November 15, 2009 at 7:30 pm

   It appears to me that it’s multi national corporations , the mega wealthy and big business in general that have taken away our authority to choose by buying up and corrupting the government . What seems to be misunderstood by small government let the market rule advacates is that the government is us . If you shrink the size and scope of governments ability to balance and control the selfish and preditory nature of the unregulated market you digress to the dog eat dog law of the jungle . Throughout history when business interests and greed have been allowed to rule the day it has been a disaster for the citizenery . Only when the people rise up and say enough to corporate and plutocratic domination is the governments role of being the voice and advacate for it’s citizens restored . This has been shown from the French revolution to our own revolution . Most don’t understand mostly because of selective historical memory that the Boston tea party was a revolt against The East India company which was in bed with the British throne . It was the corporate powers in Britain who lobbied for unfair tax , trade and industrial policies with the colonies , that was the impetuous for the revolution . The British royal family had a large financial interest in the East India company and thus served their interests , early fascism at work . We have a similar problem today , to see this one only has to check who’s buying our politicians and what their getting for their money . So no , small government isn’t the answer , honest government that isn’t bought and paid for by special interests is .
2. Sandra Price

   November 15, 2009 at 2:57 pm

   Carl, your research is invaluable. I have preached on survival for nearly 50 years.

   My problem is to identify the enemy. I’ve always looked at the government as being a source of importance to keep an eye on. I am not a conspiracy person but I keep seeing the conspiracy of others wanting our freedoms and what little wealth is found.

   I distrust the GOP for their social demands and they represent a nation not made for me. The Liberals seem less offensive but are not what they claimed to be.

   Leadership quality is what we need and you sound good at analyzing our problems.

   Would it be possible to start all over with a new agenda?
3. almandine

   November 15, 2009 at 11:04 pm

   To rail against people who want small govt is not to ratify that they want dishonest govt. The point of limited govt is that it’s easier to control, i.e., you can’t hide misdeeds nearly as well in a bucket as you can a pond.

   As for your history of free markets… it misses the point as well.
4. Sandra Price

   November 16, 2009 at 5:32 am

   No Almandine, those of us who want a downsized government to not want a dishonest government. Many were raised to take control of our own lives and contribute to others who have problems. The first attempt that the government took control came with the 16th Amendment and the 18th. We are talking about IRS and Alcohol Prohibition. The voters shrugged at these Amendments and ignored the power they handed to Big Daddy. We handed the government control over our income regulations and our consumption of booze.

   In a million years, I would not have thought my government would be a threat to my family. Possibly other Americans want and need this control but I speak for those who do not.
5. Jim C

   November 16, 2009 at 11:16 am

   You’re correct Almandine , small government is easier to control , by the corporatists and would be aristocrats that is . That is exactly why said groups lobby so mightily for just that . What you poor misguided small government let the markets rule types don’t understand is that when such a system is in place greed and self interest for the rich and powerful rules and the public interest is non existant . As far as your commment about being easier to hide misdeeds in a bucket , again , correct , it’s much easier for big business and big money to hide their misdeeds if they are a haystack and the government is the needle . All one has to do to understand that point is look at what happens when regulatory agencys are cut and shrunk in funding and scope . Perhaps you could actually offer a counter to my point rather than vague ideological drivel about my missing it . So I’ll be waiting patiently for some actual examples of just where and when such a system of small government versis big business has ever been a utopia for the public interest . Please explain how my ” history of free markets ” misses the point since I wasn’t aware I gave one , I simply offered a couple of examples which most people are both aware and can relate . Would you like more ? I’ll tell you what , I’ll give you examples of where your hands off , small government ( or rather corporate controlled government , because that’s to where such systems evolve ) ideology has failed miserably if you will give me examples where it’s been a smashing success , P.S. I won’t be holding my breath . I would be glad to engage you in actual debate Almandine , but how about some facts we can actually discuss instead of your usual drive by comments .
6. Jim C

   November 16, 2009 at 11:59 am

   Sandra , so you don’t believe the federal government should be involved in collecting taxes for the over all good of the community and upkeep of the commons , just curious ? You do understand that the dishonest government you speak is generally the result of lack of regulation and the influx of private money and influence . You are correct about the 18th amendment to a point . But the 18th was implemented while we were at war pushed by a group of puritanical zealots , the guys were none to happy about it when they got home . The amendment and the Volstead act were both shoved down our throats by religious fanatics who took advantage of the turmoil . It was repealed by the 21st amendment showing that the will of the people will eventually be served by representive government , our drug prohibition should meet the same fate . It’s also hard to ” take control of our own lives ” if the heel of corporate greed is planted firmly on your families throat , history proves that repeatedly . It isn’t your government that is a threat to your family Sandra , it’s the forces of callous greed and corporate tyranny that are attempting to usurp it with the power of wealth and privilage .
7. almandine

   November 16, 2009 at 1:31 pm

   I’ll go you one better Jim and use a crystal-clear example from our own history: The Panic of 1819, another war-driven, real estate bust spawned by monetary devaluation and cronyism.

   Analysis of that event (America’s first great economic crisis) doesn’t directly address small v large govt, as such, although our govt then was miniscule by comparison with today. It does have to do with governing, however, and allows outcome comparisons of deliberate govt inaction in response to that crisis with the active responses by govt to the Great Depression and this current govt-botched economic fiasco. It is instructive regarding the ability of govt to make fiscal matters better or worse through “doing something or nothing”.

   A short book with the title, The Panic of 1819, authored by Murray Rothbard (who also wrote America’s Great Depression), fully recounts the history and provides insightful analysis.

   I don’t drive by, Jim, but sometimes it doesn’t take long to get the whole picture.
8. Sandra Price

   November 16, 2009 at 2:23 pm

   Jim and Almadine. You are both united in the belief that our government needs the control over the people to play honestly. I do not! I had more respect for the American people to make their own choices and decisions but America has changed.

   We now have women selling their little girls to a prostitution ring. The little girls end up dead and the mother dissolve in tears. There are too many of these cases reported for me to believe that woman actually love and adore their own children.

   I see the religious right marching to keep their own sons and daughter in a war that wins nothing for either side. These are nothing but human sacrifices for some God who demands we destroy Islam.

   The America of today is a sewer of revenge, destruction and cutting others. There is no way in hell that America can suddenly be honest, ethical with even a hint of the common good.

   You tell me how much government you two want and how you plan on financing it. Building a large government will issue new laws that come directly out of George Orwell. That is our future. Does this please you? It horrifies me!!

   How many more prisons will you insist on building before you see a Tyranny develop?

   Sandy
9. almandine

   November 16, 2009 at 3:12 pm

   “You are both united in the belief that our government needs the control over the people to play honestly.”

   NO! You misread my posts Sandra.
10. Sandra Price

    November 16, 2009 at 4:16 pm

    All right, then explain what you mean when attacking me on a downsized government. Or do you want the government to have only half the size? twice the size? I would agree with you that the people who own the corporations and those who invest in the corporations cannot follow the rules. What is the answer?

    Our capitalism is over. The Corporations and Board of Directors have no claim in honesty or integrity so do we end up buying our products from foreign nations? I’m more than willing to learn from both of you on what would be the best way to make our products home and invest in them for a profit.

    Don’t drop a bomb on me and run away….
11. almandine

    November 16, 2009 at 4:33 pm

    I think you must be responding to me, so look again. I replied above to Jim, not you. And no personal attack either. I talked about the size of govt and free markets. How could that attack you?

    Nor did I say anything about investors following rules. No bomb dropping and no running.

    Maybe you’re arguing with Jim?
12. curmudgeon

    November 16, 2009 at 5:26 pm

    An alternative?
    A third party, or none of the above vote on the ballot to allow for secession. Sovereign States, for convenience of government structure.
    A return to confederation.
    The legal and physical infrastructure is in place.
    Federal Government for monetary and defense, possible, but not necessary.
    Simple, and power to the people.
    All without destruction, anarchy or violent revolution.
13. Kent.Shaw

    November 16, 2009 at 6:43 pm

    I think it is the nature of governments in general to gradually usurp more and more power for themselves, and finally they become the rulers of the population rather than the servants. We reached that point in this country decades ago.

    Kent Shaw
14. Kent.Shaw

    November 16, 2009 at 6:44 pm

    Another very good example of the definition of fascism.

    Kent Shaw
15. griff

    November 16, 2009 at 7:08 pm

    And how do those corporate titans prevail but through government proxy?

    Until 1999 there was no such things as derivatives or collateralized debt obligations. Our government created them, or more accurately they legalized their creation at the behest of Wall Street.

    Before 1992 we were an industrial superpower. With the passage of NAFTA and GATT – once again a product of corporate lobbying – our industry has been decimated and moved offshore.

    Our government and corporate power are one in the same now. There is no distinction between the two.
16. Sandra Price

    November 17, 2009 at 5:53 am

    I have done some thinking about this subject of corruption in our government and in our corporations. The core of the corruption comes straight from our Congress. Many of our corporations gained from paying the members of Congress for favors that allowed the corporation to gain in government contracts. It also allowed the Wall street honchos to run over the laws set by the Securities Exchange under Federal control. It is deeper than that but let’s discuss how we clean up the source of the problems.

    It is more than time for the voters to take a stand against this Congress accepting money from corporations and changing laws and contracts for their benefit.

    This has gone on long enough. We cannot ask congress to change their operations as it has become so spread out over the system that creating new laws has become redundant.

    At this time the Congress is eager to write more laws controlling the people than themselves.

    griff, you are correct and the corporations/congress must be stopped before all small businesses are sucked up into the mess.

    The voters are the only solution to this destruction of America. I had hoped the internet would be the tool for correction but it followed the anger of the people and became an arena instead of a tool.

    CHB has remained above the fray and we must work as a team to work against the corruption. Both political parties are consumed with fund raising from the corporations and there is the problem. Voting for one party or another simply changes the labels, not the source of corruption.

    Has this become so out of control that only a third party can stop it? If we don’t do something, it is all over folks!
17. Jim C

    November 18, 2009 at 9:11 pm

    This is great , so nobody knows who is responding to who or what ? If there is such a thig as a classic thread , this is it .
18. Jim C

    November 18, 2009 at 7:23 pm

    Sandra Sandra Sandra , you always refer to ” the government ” as if it’s some foreign entity that’s dropped out of the sky ! My dear Sandra , it ain’t , it’s us , like it or not we elect these statesmen or clowns , depending on your poiint of view . If we don’t like what their doing then we vote them out , a least that’s the idea . The problems begin when totaly self interested , selfish or just plain corrupt individuals or special interests infiltrate the system and distort it in their favor . The present tax system is a perfect example . Everyone complains mightly about the length and complexity etc as if it’s some proof of governments incompetence . The reason the tax code is so complicated is because special interests have been using their bought and paid for access to write it in their favor for years . The answer is to keep private and corporate money out of the system period , the government should represent the electorate which is the majority , not a small powerful minority as it does now . Shrinking the peoples voice yet futher is certainly not the answer . That is unless the question is how best to install a feudal system . The idea of simply turning multinationals loose to work their free market magic is just nuts . At least if we hate what the government’s doing we can head to the polls and vote the bums out . Once you allow these corporate powers to take control you have no such option . Most of the horrors you refer to in the second half of your post are the result of religious fanatics , the powerful military industrial complex etc , not a representive government , the dismantling of such is the problem . Sandra , Orwell was discribing fascism , not a democratic republic . what he invisioned was true unbridled corporate fascism , or ” Atlas Shrugged ” , the sequel if you will . As far as the financing we now spend 51% of our budget on the military . We spend more on the military than every other country in the world combined , perhaps we could cut that in half . We would then have a military that is only the size of the ten next largest countries , I believe we could fend off Canada and Mexico with that , don’t you think . We could also emulate the rest of the modern world and get the profit motive out of our healthcare system , that might help also . Do you really believe that getting the government off the backs of corporate power by yet futher deregulating them would be a good idea Sandra , really , do you ? If you do reread Orwell again , then think about what the picture he’s painting describes ( hint ) it’s not a representive democracy . Oh , as far as Almandine and myself agreeing , oddly enough we generally do . I think he’s just argumentative , but I’m sure he’ll disagree .
19. almandine

    November 18, 2009 at 10:22 pm

    Hey Jim –

    Argumentative is not the worst moniker I can think of and it’s I guess just the price I have to pay for being data-driven. Identifiable cause and effect is my goal. The difference I see between us is that I’m more libertarian… I would indeed get rid of much govt… but increase the voice, activity, and responsibility of the citizenry in compensation. We do indeed need to start over with govt if we ever are to have a chance at liberty and prosperity again. The current system will continue to enslave us more and more as we go. The problem is that there are few that can think big enough to unleash us from our morass.
20. almandine

    November 18, 2009 at 10:24 pm

    Indentation strikes again !
21. bryan mcclellan

    November 14, 2009 at 7:30 pm

    Congrats Sandra, can’t say I’m not a little envious but I rarely have two coherent thoughts in a row so, Batter up, play ball.

    As to Veterans health care, it is a travesty that our fighting men and women are not afforded the same if not better coverage for life that the fools who send them to do the bidding of the corporate masters enjoy.
    Here is the footer we must place before a single brick of rhetoric is lain to construct our wall of true equality and fairness. A foundation built on sacrifice 360 degrees,
    as to in the end, encompass all Americans.
22. almandine

    November 14, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    Now I get why you call Doug “Chief”.

    Kinda like the Daily Planet.
23. Carl Nemo

    November 14, 2009 at 8:57 pm

    … )

    Carl Nemo **==
24. griff

    November 14, 2009 at 3:09 pm

    It’s all over.
25. almandine

    November 14, 2009 at 3:15 pm

    I’ll bite, what does this have to do with the price of ginseng in China ???
26. Carl Nemo

    November 14, 2009 at 8:55 pm

    Hi griff,

    I knew it was over years ago when “Tricky Dick” visited China in hopes of thawing relations on behalf of the Rockefellers who were seeking future cheap labor markets, no differently than when they exploited Japan post WWII. Many people don’t know this but the seed money for SONY Corp. was tendered on behalf of the Rockefeller family. Sony stands for “Standard Oil of New York”; I’m not joking either.

    They look at the whole planet as simply a massive enterprise zone with various sub zones coming on line, the U.S. now almost broken to its knees or worse.

    We’ve got traitors in high places, unfortunately the term “traitor” seems to be a quaint euphemism in our times. : |

    Just keep purchasing your silver coins as you once mentioned, provision for bad times to come and plan on looking out for numero uno; ie., you and your family first. There is to be no redemption for Americans, I know so! Our traitorous, criminally disposed leaders have sown the wind and we shall all reap the mighty whirlwind for their duplicity in high places.

    For all we know we just might witness a “cultural revolution” under the U.S. enterprise zone leader, associate chairman Obama, sooner than we might think.

    I suspect he’s over there sucking up for a continual supply of ‘spending money’ courtesy of his Red Chinese, pirate capitalist benefactors.

    He might even be arranging for the transfer of the 8100 plus metric tonnes of gold out of Ft. Knox to the PRC to cover part of our debt.

    Carl Nemo **==
27. griff

    November 14, 2009 at 3:38 pm

    Obama Mao? People laughed during the campaign when I suggested Obama would introduce the China Model here in this country.

    First we had the Empire State Building lit in red and yellow, followed by the historic raising of the Chinese flag alongside Old Glory in Washington – all to commemorate the establishment of a communist regime that killed tens of millions of people and rules its country with an iron fist?

    The real stroty is between the lines.

    I remember practicing diving under desks as a kid because of the communist threat, and now we adore them and want to emulate them.

    American farmers begging from the Chinese. A country built on slave labor and U.S. dollars. What’s not to like?
28. almandine

    November 14, 2009 at 3:42 pm

    I think you’re getting a little too one-sided here… those good O’Maoists were just tryin’ to help our farmers out… ya know?

    Come on back with the tat for your tit.
29. griff

    November 14, 2009 at 8:09 pm

    Yeah I know, I should be more appreciative of our most-favored nation. After all, we did give them most of our industrial base in exchange for cheap goods that we can’t even afford anymore because no one has a job. Now they’re kind enough to throw us a few scraps by buying some produce and we all get to become obedient little socialists ourselves as we rely on everything from government. And not just our own anymore, but the Chinese no less. A fair trade, I guess.
30. bryan mcclellan

    November 14, 2009 at 8:26 pm

    Buy local, if they don’t have it you probably can wait till we take back our base.
    Refuse to buy cheap crap starting with Jordan tennis shoes, sports jerseys, dog food, etc.
    Cancel that reverse life insurance policy.

    Send all this crap back on a slow boat at high speed as opportunities are boundless on that narrow road of,
    Duty, Honor, Country.
31. bryan mcclellan

    November 14, 2009 at 4:48 pm

    The Maoists should have dents all over them from our Ten foot pole of opposition to privacy, trade, and human rights violations. Congress instead has allowed the American worker to be placed in Chinese back pockets by Trade Policy a third grade Lemonade stand operator would recognized as crooked and immoral.
    Sad witness to once upon a time in America. Sold out by the money masters to foreign interests till a gathering of assets is complete or at least sates the belly of the beast before the final purge.
    All trade partners exploit weakness, in our case, Congress waits for lights out to sovereignty.
    300,000,000 prosperous Americans vs Congress ?
    Don’t bet on it happening anytime soon.
32. bryan mcclellan

    November 14, 2009 at 7:57 pm

    Sandra, what isn’t politics today?
    Average is deliberately under developed while inundated with superfluousness, spectrophotometry, and a birds eye view, with a bias of just the news, read it and weep.

    Rocks must be optional,
    or we will not remain to be a civilization free enough to cast the first editorial.
33. griff

    November 14, 2009 at 9:31 pm

    Veteran’s healthcare is easy. Just walk in any hospital or doctor’s office and receive the very best care money can buy. At no charge. Send the bill to the U.S. government.

    The question of politics is far more difficult. I think the Founders were correct in many respects in their assessment of political factions. The danger doesn’t lie in the existence of the parties themselves but the natural propensity for party identity to merge with personal identity. That politics become personal, and personal empowerment is realized through party empowerment.

    Thomas Paine once wrote, “The little wranglings and indecent contentions of personal party, are as dishonorable to our characters, as they are injurious to our repose.”

    It seems that Paine was quite attuned to the nature of parties when in 1802 he prophetically wrote, “In the history of parties and the names they assume, it often happens, that they finish by the direct contrary principles with which they profess to begin.”

    If there’s any doubt to the accuracy of that assessment, one only need look at our two parties today. And the fact that there are only two opens up an entirely new frontier of possibilities for the party shepherds.

    Again, Payne summed it up quite nicely in 1787 when he wrote, “Party knows no impulse but spirit, no prize but victory. It is blind to truth, and hardened against conviction. It seeks to justify error by perseverance, and denies to its own mind the operation of its own judgement. A man under the tyranny of party spirit is the greatest slave upon earth, for none but himslef can deprive him of the freedom of thought.”
34. griff

    November 14, 2009 at 9:42 pm

    I watched a show the other day on History Channel about Fort Knox. All that gold…

    Always the same players, no?
35. almandine

    November 15, 2009 at 9:07 am

    Speaking of China and gold, I ran across this interesting tidbit. Long and complex, but full of intrigue…

    http://www.worldreports.org/news/246_matters_come_to_an_explosive_head_for_everyone
36. Carl Nemo

    November 15, 2009 at 9:52 pm

    Thanks almandine for the link. It’s almost too good to be true.

    Allegedly the U.S. is sitting on 8100 metric tonnes of gold, the world’s largest single hoard.

    The Chinese might make a claim in gold, but the world is not on the gold standard and hasn’t been for years.

    So whether they can collect or not is a function if they can standup against our Asian theater sub launched Trident crowd pleasers which would reduce all of the Chinese population and its infrastructure back to ratmeat and rice eating neoliths within less than 20 minutes once ordered to launch.

    For us it will be the ultimate bankruptcy proceeding in the history the world; ie., annihilation of the creditor! Of course the U.S. will pay some price too since they have ICBM capabilities, but we can all whistle “Dixie” as our survivors climb out of the ashes to rebuild their nation “debt free”. : )

    I don’t think they have the muscle as yet to enforce their collections.

    But, who knows with China’s associate ‘dear leader’ in place, our current President just might back the trucks up to Ft. Knox and write them a Treasury backed IOU for the 2000 metric tonne balance due or they can have all the lands West of the Mississippi, kind of a reverse of the “Louisiana Purchase” under Thomas Jefferson. / : |

    Carl Nemo **==
37. bryan mcclellan

    November 15, 2009 at 1:31 am

    None but himself inspires revolt against reason without guidance. Although we are communitarian and always waiting for the next to step up before we commit.
    Few men have found fodder for argument when law be followed from the feet to the neck with your head in the balance.
    I would not have liked to be hung, shot, nor falsely accused by such as founded my country, nor faced their Sabers of slashing fairness in court.
    Many now find Law ambiguous to nearly arcane as it becomes what seems to be to their advantage, as benign Officeholders.
    ..Hack
38. Sandra Price

    November 15, 2009 at 5:54 am

    Wow, a lot of action here on a Saturday evening. I was involved at a Chapter meeting of Compassion and Choices and after doing the cookies and organizing the clean up, I simply fell into a pile of exhaustion.

    Carl, your comments on the Rockefellers is right on! The whole family and corporate managers came after Goldwater because he threatened to clean out the government of the power and corruption. He wanted to do this to downsize the power of government. I thought this was the best way to clean up our government and get the American people involved in their own decisions and values. Okay I was wrong!

    I have admitted to being naive on the subject of values. I over-estimated the power of the voters to want the same freedoms that I learned were mine for the taking. I under-estimated the power of religion that will guide people into the after life. As a mother and grandmother I want these damn wars to stop. We gain nothing.

    Bryan, I have tried and failed to live a life of reason. Your analysis of the truth behind our founding fathers is closer to reality than anything I bought and paid for.

    I’m pleading for instructions on where we go next… I spent 3 days in Seattle with a group of Secular people who were young, enthusiastic, intelligent and wanting a freer world for them to develop. We had 600 at the Saturday night banquet and I kept my focus on the audience. I was that excited about America’s future at their age and I had some of it wear off on me.

    The American voters have little interest in the corruption and crimes of our government. Bringing up this subject only brings on “we do not discuss politics or religion” and the discussion is over.

    The reality of America is often more than I can fathom. I grab my books to escape. I listen to my music for a distraction and wander here at CHB for other opinions. Without my books and Bach, I would be a flaming maniac.

    Help me guys and gals……
39. Kent.Shaw

    November 15, 2009 at 12:10 pm

    SONY. Standard Oil Of New York. I had no idea, but it makes perfect sense. Nothing is as it seems. I give up. All is lost. I’ve been tilting at windmills all my life. Now? Screw it. I’ll stay under the radar as long as I can, and when the coming hyperinflation finally overcomes my ability to pay the taxes on my little townhouse, I’ll become just one more “homeless by choice” individual waiting in the soup lines. At least I have a warm sleeping bag. I’ll look for you all in the fields and the forests because I sure won’t be alone.

    Kent Shaw
40. Carl Nemo

    November 15, 2009 at 1:06 pm

    Hi Kent Shaw,

    Based on my research over the years, I’d say our entire political paradigm and social construct as we know it is the equivalent of “The Matrix” experience. I wished I had the physical powers of “Neo” the superhero of the movie then summary changes could be made to stop these “Agents of Perdition” who’ve relentlessly created this synthetic societal construct in their tracks.

    The only way to hopefully survive is to provision well for future bad times and to keep yourself and family under the radar as low as possible.

    That’s how many folks survived the Nazi occupation of Europe and I”m not talking about the Jews either. For the most part they didn’t survive the roundups, but people forget the Nazi’s rounded up Catholics, gypsies, general malcontents et al., all classed as enemies of the state. : |

    Carl Nemo **==