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	<title>Comments on: Government-run health care ain&#8217;t all that great</title>
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	<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/18959</link>
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		<title>By: doneck</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/18959/comment-page-1#comment-51872</link>
		<dc:creator>doneck</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-51872</guid>
		<description>According to the CIA World Factbook &lt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy#List_by_the_CIA_World_Factbook_.282008_estimates.29&gt;, in the ranking of the life expectancies of UN member states, Canada is the tenth highest, the UK is number 26, and the US is number 30.  Can it be that our friends are not as healthy with socialized medicine as we are, yet they actually live longer than we do? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>According to the CIA World Factbook <http: //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_life_expectancy#List_by_the_CIA_World_Factbook_.282008_estimates.29>, in the ranking of the life expectancies of UN member states, Canada is the tenth highest, the UK is number 26, and the US is number 30.  Can it be that our friends are not as healthy with socialized medicine as we are, yet they actually live longer than we do?</http:></p>
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		<title>By: SimonSC</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/18959/comment-page-1#comment-51874</link>
		<dc:creator>SimonSC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-51874</guid>
		<description>Canada spends 9.4% GDP on health care, the U.S. spends 13.9%.  Canada spends $3,173/pp, the U.S. $6,096.  Canada spends about 16% on administration, leaving ~$2660 for care with 100% of the population covered.  The U.S. spends 31% on administrative costs, leaving $4200 for care, not adjusting for the tens of millions who are uninsured.

It is not surprising that for a number of illnesses, the outcomes are better in the U.S.: more cash is thrown at the problem and that money is spread over fewer people.  The significantly higher expenditures in the U.S. do lead to some nice facilities.  However, look at other measures: infant mortality is higher in the U.S., higher even than Cuba.  This is often taken as a measure for basic, broad care.  As already noted, Canadians and Britons live longer, even with the binge drinking and obesity problems in the U.K.

The U.S. is (I think) the only first-world example of profit-governed medicine.  Occasionally the private component of Canada&#039;s health care industry advocates more &quot;anti-social&quot; medical measures.  The U.S. outcomes and costs serve as an example that pretty much shuts down the debate here before it gets started.

Britain&#039;s and Canada&#039;s medical system isn&#039;t perfect, we know that, but it is pretty good, especially for urgent care.  Few people outside the U.S. want its health care system.  Most Canadians consider the U.S. as an embarrassment to the country and a mistake no one else wants to duplicate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Canada spends 9.4% GDP on health care, the U.S. spends 13.9%.  Canada spends $3,173/pp, the U.S. $6,096.  Canada spends about 16% on administration, leaving ~$2660 for care with 100% of the population covered.  The U.S. spends 31% on administrative costs, leaving $4200 for care, not adjusting for the tens of millions who are uninsured.</p>
<p>It is not surprising that for a number of illnesses, the outcomes are better in the U.S.: more cash is thrown at the problem and that money is spread over fewer people.  The significantly higher expenditures in the U.S. do lead to some nice facilities.  However, look at other measures: infant mortality is higher in the U.S., higher even than Cuba.  This is often taken as a measure for basic, broad care.  As already noted, Canadians and Britons live longer, even with the binge drinking and obesity problems in the U.K.</p>
<p>The U.S. is (I think) the only first-world example of profit-governed medicine.  Occasionally the private component of Canada&#8217;s health care industry advocates more &#8220;anti-social&#8221; medical measures.  The U.S. outcomes and costs serve as an example that pretty much shuts down the debate here before it gets started.</p>
<p>Britain&#8217;s and Canada&#8217;s medical system isn&#8217;t perfect, we know that, but it is pretty good, especially for urgent care.  Few people outside the U.S. want its health care system.  Most Canadians consider the U.S. as an embarrassment to the country and a mistake no one else wants to duplicate.</p>
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		<title>By: jarrodlombardo</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/18959/comment-page-1#comment-51879</link>
		<dc:creator>jarrodlombardo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-51879</guid>
		<description>Comparing the proposed plans to the UK, Canada, or France is dumb because those countries&#039; systems are totally unlike what anyone in Congress has proposed. Comparing to how things work in Germany and Switzerland makes more sense, since the proposed plans are very similar to those countries&#039; systems.

http://gulfstreamblues.cafebabel.com/en/post/2009/08/05/Germany,-and-Reason,-Ignored-in-US-Healthcare-Debate

--Jarrod</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Comparing the proposed plans to the UK, Canada, or France is dumb because those countries&#8217; systems are totally unlike what anyone in Congress has proposed. Comparing to how things work in Germany and Switzerland makes more sense, since the proposed plans are very similar to those countries&#8217; systems.</p>
<p><a href="http://gulfstreamblues.cafebabel.com/en/post/2009/08/05/Germany,-and-Reason,-Ignored-in-US-Healthcare-Debate" rel="nofollow">http://gulfstreamblues.cafebabel.com/en/post/2009/08/05/Germany,-and-Reason,-Ignored-in-US-Healthcare-Debate</a></p>
<p>&#8211;Jarrod</p>
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		<title>By: SimonSC</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/18959/comment-page-1#comment-51893</link>
		<dc:creator>SimonSC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-51893</guid>
		<description>The Swiss do a good job (I&#039;ve lived there) but again, there&#039;s more money put into things.  They spend 10.9% of GDP.  10% more money in the Canadian system, or a third again more money in the U.K. system would probably get similar results.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Swiss do a good job (I&#8217;ve lived there) but again, there&#8217;s more money put into things.  They spend 10.9% of GDP.  10% more money in the Canadian system, or a third again more money in the U.K. system would probably get similar results.</p>
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		<title>By: bogofree</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/18959/comment-page-1#comment-51904</link>
		<dc:creator>bogofree</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-51904</guid>
		<description>What this points out is what scares the hell out of me and that is that the bar will not be raised to my level (an excellent program) but be lowered to theirs. In the managed system the nanny state has taken over the decision making so I could end up with a death sentence thanks to a rubber stamp functionary. 

If I have a problem with a physicians evaluation  and wish a second or third opinion on a critical matter I get it. Remember the old joke:  “What do they call someone who finished last in medical school?” Doctor.
.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What this points out is what scares the hell out of me and that is that the bar will not be raised to my level (an excellent program) but be lowered to theirs. In the managed system the nanny state has taken over the decision making so I could end up with a death sentence thanks to a rubber stamp functionary. </p>
<p>If I have a problem with a physicians evaluation  and wish a second or third opinion on a critical matter I get it. Remember the old joke:  “What do they call someone who finished last in medical school?” Doctor.<br />
.</p>
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		<title>By: SimonSC</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/18959/comment-page-1#comment-51913</link>
		<dc:creator>SimonSC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-51913</guid>
		<description>Sorry bogofree, but that&#039;s a fear that the people taking that 31% administrative cost have propagated.  Here in Canada I have consulted more than one health care professional about things.  No problem.  Unlike the profit-driven case, no single private interest can thwart care.
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry bogofree, but that&#8217;s a fear that the people taking that 31% administrative cost have propagated.  Here in Canada I have consulted more than one health care professional about things.  No problem.  Unlike the profit-driven case, no single private interest can thwart care.</p>
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		<title>By: CheckerboardStrangler</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/18959/comment-page-1#comment-51941</link>
		<dc:creator>CheckerboardStrangler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-51941</guid>
		<description>Keep drinking that Kool-Aid folks, just don&#039;t forget who is doing the pouring.
Nationalized health insurance works in every country it&#039;s been instituted in. No one is clamoring for a USA type system over there.
Do people come here to get procedures done?
Yes of course they do.
But HOW MANY?

Not as many as you think.

But guess who is traveling out of country to get medical procedures done in numbers large enough to support an entirely new industry (medical tourism to India)?

Yep, you guessed it...WE ARE.

How&#039;s that greatest health care system on earth looking now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Keep drinking that Kool-Aid folks, just don&#8217;t forget who is doing the pouring.<br />
Nationalized health insurance works in every country it&#8217;s been instituted in. No one is clamoring for a USA type system over there.<br />
Do people come here to get procedures done?<br />
Yes of course they do.<br />
But HOW MANY?</p>
<p>Not as many as you think.</p>
<p>But guess who is traveling out of country to get medical procedures done in numbers large enough to support an entirely new industry (medical tourism to India)?</p>
<p>Yep, you guessed it&#8230;WE ARE.</p>
<p>How&#8217;s that greatest health care system on earth looking now?</p>
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		<title>By: CheckerboardStrangler</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/18959/comment-page-1#comment-51942</link>
		<dc:creator>CheckerboardStrangler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-51942</guid>
		<description>Ahhh, found some numbers for you!
According to 
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/27/india.medical.travel/index.html

SIX MILLION Americans will travel to India for medical procedures this year.

Number of people coming to the United States each year?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#United_States
Sixty to eighty-five thousand.

Hmmmmmm, what&#039;s that, Deroy?
Couldn&#039;t hear ya mate.
Your mouth is full of ASTROTURF.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahhh, found some numbers for you!<br />
According to<br />
<a href="http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/27/india.medical.travel/index.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/03/27/india.medical.travel/index.html</a></p>
<p>SIX MILLION Americans will travel to India for medical procedures this year.</p>
<p>Number of people coming to the United States each year?<br />
<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#United_States" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#United_States</a><br />
Sixty to eighty-five thousand.</p>
<p>Hmmmmmm, what&#8217;s that, Deroy?<br />
Couldn&#8217;t hear ya mate.<br />
Your mouth is full of ASTROTURF.</p>
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		<title>By: elfish</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/18959/comment-page-1#comment-51960</link>
		<dc:creator>elfish</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-51960</guid>
		<description>This is a perfect example of how to lie with statistics. First of your numbers flat out wrong. Take for example breast cancer. According the &quot;Cancer Journal For Clinicians,&quot; the breast cancer death rate in Britain is 25% and 20% in the United States.

But the real problem is that you are assuming that the difference is caused by the health care system. If that were the case, then we should adopt the Mexican health care system because the breast cancer death rate there is only 8%. Or maybe we should adopt the Chinese system because the rate is only 6%. That&#039;s right the Chinese system is three time better than ours.

The reality is that breast cancer death rates are highly effected by diet. It is dairy products and meat that cause the high death rates, not the health care system. The same thing applies to prostate cancer.

Everyone of your examples are disceptive. For example steroid injections have now been proved to be no more effective for back pain than palcebo. 
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a perfect example of how to lie with statistics. First of your numbers flat out wrong. Take for example breast cancer. According the &#8220;Cancer Journal For Clinicians,&#8221; the breast cancer death rate in Britain is 25% and 20% in the United States.</p>
<p>But the real problem is that you are assuming that the difference is caused by the health care system. If that were the case, then we should adopt the Mexican health care system because the breast cancer death rate there is only 8%. Or maybe we should adopt the Chinese system because the rate is only 6%. That&#8217;s right the Chinese system is three time better than ours.</p>
<p>The reality is that breast cancer death rates are highly effected by diet. It is dairy products and meat that cause the high death rates, not the health care system. The same thing applies to prostate cancer.</p>
<p>Everyone of your examples are disceptive. For example steroid injections have now been proved to be no more effective for back pain than palcebo.</p>
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		<title>By: SimonSC</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/18959/comment-page-1#comment-51963</link>
		<dc:creator>SimonSC</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-51963</guid>
		<description>Good work, elfish.  I&#039;ll add a personal experience to temper the article&#039;s MRI stat for Canada: same day.  There was cause for concern with a relative of mine and the MRI was available same day.  When care is truly urgently required, you get it.  No wallet triage... you just get treatment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good work, elfish.  I&#8217;ll add a personal experience to temper the article&#8217;s MRI stat for Canada: same day.  There was cause for concern with a relative of mine and the MRI was available same day.  When care is truly urgently required, you get it.  No wallet triage&#8230; you just get treatment.</p>
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