<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Is Congress using a Bill of Attainder to get A.I.G.?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/16599/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/16599</link>
	<description>The oldest political news site on the Internet</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 09 Feb 2012 15:30:55 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: Warren</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/16599/comment-page-1#comment-47132</link>
		<dc:creator>Warren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-47132</guid>
		<description>Just watch how quickly                                those companies that are in TARP scale back the bonuses and shift the money to base pay.

—W—</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just watch how quickly                                those companies that are in TARP scale back the bonuses and shift the money to base pay.</p>
<p>—W—</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: gazelle1929</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/16599/comment-page-1#comment-47147</link>
		<dc:creator>gazelle1929</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-47147</guid>
		<description>A bill of attainder is one which purports to attaint (criminally condemn) a person without benefit of criminal trial.  In bygone days, a bill of attainder could declare guilty not only an individual but all of his or her descendants, meaning that entire families were executed.  

An ex post facto law is one which attempts to take away a right that has already accrued to an individual.  Perhaps the best example of that is the so-called Hiss Act, which was passed in the aftermath of Alger Hiss&#039;s perjury conviction to deny Federal pension benefits to anyone who was convicted of perjury (among other crimes) in connection with espionage investigations.

Hiss had worked for the Government for some years prior to his conviction, and when he became eligible for a pension from the Government (based upon a combination of years of service and attained age) he applied to The Civil Service Commission (now Office of Personnel Management) for a pension, which was in the neighborhood of $125 a month IIRC.  The CSC denied his pension application and Hiss filed suit.  The courts ruled that the actions Mr. Hiss was convicted of had taken place prior to the date of enactment of the Hiss Act and therefore the application of the law to him ex post facto was unconstitutional.  To put it another way:  when Hiss perjured himself the law did not at the time allow denial of pension benefits for such an infraction, therefore he was entitled to them under the law.

Bills of attainder pertain to criminal matters.

But what we have in the case here is not, I believe, either a bill of attainder or an ex post facto law.  The Government has long been able to make tax law changes during a tax year, and to make them retroactive to the beginning of the year.  But once a tax year is done it is &quot;etched in regulation&quot; and may not be retroactively amended.  Most if not all of the employees who received the bonuses from AIG will have the calendar year as their tax year.  I have never met an individual who has elected to and received permission from the IRS to file on other than a calendar year basis, but I have to assume that some exist.  If one of those people involved did have a tax year that ended some time after the receipt of the bonus and before the passage of an act taxing the income at a higher rate, he or she is in clover.

But all the rest, and my assumption is that means all of them, will find they are bound by tax laws passed during their tax year (the calendar year.)

To turn this around, when Congress passes laws to reduce taxes, does anyone scrupulously say, &quot;Well, the law was passed October 7, and I want to pay the higher tax rate for that part of my income I got before that day?&quot;  Nope.  The laws are effective for the entire tax year, even if enacted into law on December 31.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A bill of attainder is one which purports to attaint (criminally condemn) a person without benefit of criminal trial.  In bygone days, a bill of attainder could declare guilty not only an individual but all of his or her descendants, meaning that entire families were executed.  </p>
<p>An ex post facto law is one which attempts to take away a right that has already accrued to an individual.  Perhaps the best example of that is the so-called Hiss Act, which was passed in the aftermath of Alger Hiss&#8217;s perjury conviction to deny Federal pension benefits to anyone who was convicted of perjury (among other crimes) in connection with espionage investigations.</p>
<p>Hiss had worked for the Government for some years prior to his conviction, and when he became eligible for a pension from the Government (based upon a combination of years of service and attained age) he applied to The Civil Service Commission (now Office of Personnel Management) for a pension, which was in the neighborhood of $125 a month IIRC.  The CSC denied his pension application and Hiss filed suit.  The courts ruled that the actions Mr. Hiss was convicted of had taken place prior to the date of enactment of the Hiss Act and therefore the application of the law to him ex post facto was unconstitutional.  To put it another way:  when Hiss perjured himself the law did not at the time allow denial of pension benefits for such an infraction, therefore he was entitled to them under the law.</p>
<p>Bills of attainder pertain to criminal matters.</p>
<p>But what we have in the case here is not, I believe, either a bill of attainder or an ex post facto law.  The Government has long been able to make tax law changes during a tax year, and to make them retroactive to the beginning of the year.  But once a tax year is done it is &#8220;etched in regulation&#8221; and may not be retroactively amended.  Most if not all of the employees who received the bonuses from AIG will have the calendar year as their tax year.  I have never met an individual who has elected to and received permission from the IRS to file on other than a calendar year basis, but I have to assume that some exist.  If one of those people involved did have a tax year that ended some time after the receipt of the bonus and before the passage of an act taxing the income at a higher rate, he or she is in clover.</p>
<p>But all the rest, and my assumption is that means all of them, will find they are bound by tax laws passed during their tax year (the calendar year.)</p>
<p>To turn this around, when Congress passes laws to reduce taxes, does anyone scrupulously say, &#8220;Well, the law was passed October 7, and I want to pay the higher tax rate for that part of my income I got before that day?&#8221;  Nope.  The laws are effective for the entire tax year, even if enacted into law on December 31.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: JerryG</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/16599/comment-page-1#comment-47156</link>
		<dc:creator>JerryG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-47156</guid>
		<description>It would eventually be found unconstitutional with no ands, ifs or buts about it, however the Senate isn&#039;t even going to consider it. The good news is that maybe, just maybe, one of the Senate dinosaurs (Chris Dodd) will be defeated in the 2010 primary if a credible and politically visionary Democrat steps up to the plate! (Don&#039;t worry, the majority of the people of CT will never vote for a Repub!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would eventually be found unconstitutional with no ands, ifs or buts about it, however the Senate isn&#8217;t even going to consider it. The good news is that maybe, just maybe, one of the Senate dinosaurs (Chris Dodd) will be defeated in the 2010 primary if a credible and politically visionary Democrat steps up to the plate! (Don&#8217;t worry, the majority of the people of CT will never vote for a Repub!)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Carl Nemo</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/16599/comment-page-1#comment-47158</link>
		<dc:creator>Carl Nemo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-47158</guid>
		<description>Thanks gazelle1929...

I must say your writing on this subject is a gem; ie., a nice piece of expository work...! :)


Carl Nemo **==
  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks gazelle1929&#8230;</p>
<p>I must say your writing on this subject is a gem; ie., a nice piece of expository work&#8230;! <img src='http://www.capitolhillblue.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Carl Nemo **==</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: almandine</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/16599/comment-page-1#comment-47165</link>
		<dc:creator>almandine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-47165</guid>
		<description>One could assert the right-to-property the bonuses represent - contracts penned before the current tax year - in terms of ex post facto.

Collectivism is slavery... </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One could assert the right-to-property the bonuses represent &#8211; contracts penned before the current tax year &#8211; in terms of ex post facto.</p>
<p>Collectivism is slavery&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: gazelle1929</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/16599/comment-page-1#comment-47171</link>
		<dc:creator>gazelle1929</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-47171</guid>
		<description>I had a boss once who looked at something I wrote and remarked, &quot;You sure write good.&quot;  I immediately began a search for new employment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had a boss once who looked at something I wrote and remarked, &#8220;You sure write good.&#8221;  I immediately began a search for new employment.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: gazelle1929</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/16599/comment-page-1#comment-47172</link>
		<dc:creator>gazelle1929</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-47172</guid>
		<description>Nope.  Even if you have no tax withheld at all you have no property right to your entire income if the law says a part of it is due to the government as taxes.  

Further, the contract does not control when it becomes taxable income.  What determines taxable income and tax year is the date on which it is paid to your or when you begin to exercise control of the money.

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nope.  Even if you have no tax withheld at all you have no property right to your entire income if the law says a part of it is due to the government as taxes.  </p>
<p>Further, the contract does not control when it becomes taxable income.  What determines taxable income and tax year is the date on which it is paid to your or when you begin to exercise control of the money.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Wecouldoit</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/16599/comment-page-1#comment-47180</link>
		<dc:creator>Wecouldoit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-47180</guid>
		<description>Well said Gazelle1929!

I continues to amaze me that although I have researched and read many reasoned posts about the &quot;idea&quot; of a tax claw back, many continue to cite Attainder and ex post facto as reasons why such legislation is &quot;obviously&quot; unconstitutional. Of course it isn&#039;t. There is plenty of precedent as to why such an act is not constrained by the constitution.  Whether it is wise and well written is the topic for another day.  My vote is that we try to anticipate the total impact of the legislation before enacting it...this time!
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well said Gazelle1929!</p>
<p>I continues to amaze me that although I have researched and read many reasoned posts about the &#8220;idea&#8221; of a tax claw back, many continue to cite Attainder and ex post facto as reasons why such legislation is &#8220;obviously&#8221; unconstitutional. Of course it isn&#8217;t. There is plenty of precedent as to why such an act is not constrained by the constitution.  Whether it is wise and well written is the topic for another day.  My vote is that we try to anticipate the total impact of the legislation before enacting it&#8230;this time!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: almandine</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/16599/comment-page-1#comment-47189</link>
		<dc:creator>almandine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-47189</guid>
		<description>So what is your point other than banter? 

Bills of attainder, ex post facto laws, the Constitution, etc., were propogated to insure the rights of individuals against the State. Are you fer that or agin it?

Collectivism is slavery... </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So what is your point other than banter? </p>
<p>Bills of attainder, ex post facto laws, the Constitution, etc., were propogated to insure the rights of individuals against the State. Are you fer that or agin it?</p>
<p>Collectivism is slavery&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: almandine</title>
		<link>http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/16599/comment-page-1#comment-47190</link>
		<dc:creator>almandine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Nov -0001 00:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-47190</guid>
		<description>So, you are FOR the idea of the State against yourself?

Collectivism is slavery... </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, you are FOR the idea of the State against yourself?</p>
<p>Collectivism is slavery&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

