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Israeli Overkill

By
December 27, 2008

Hamas has once again attempted to burst out of draconian Israeli policies with violence, and once again Israel has responded with overkill. After the misadventure in Lebanon some of us had hoped that Israel had learned that it was not free to launch expansive military campaigns in response to perceived threats to its security. But they have not and are looking like the military is out of control.

The killing of over 225 people, many innocent civilians, on December 27 is so out of proportion to the claimed provocation by Hamas that it raises the question of whether it was really a campaign tactic by the ruling coalition that is struggling to stay in power. It also raises the question for me of what right does Israel have to isolate, starve and kill those it disapproves of.

Yes, any nation has a right of self-defense. But the minimal impact of the Hamas rocket attack that Israel uses to justify this horrendous bombing campaign is simply does not justify this blitzkrieg.

It is time for the United States, the primary provider of money and armaments to Israel, to cut off any additional aid to them until the end this campaign, accept Hamas as the rightful government in the Gaza and get serious about negotiations to end the madness.

Israel has to stop relying upon violence in return for violence. It has never succeeded and will not now. Hamas will return the favor with more violence, then Israeli leaders will respond with more killing. What is gained with all this? Death and destruction.

Israel get big mileage out of the refusal of Hamas to recognize Israel, but that is a paper tiger. There is no real threat from this refusal and has to be viewed as posturing by Hamas. Israel, afterall, does not recognize Hamas, so there seems to me to be nothing to be gained by shaping policy around that fact.

It is time for the UN to impose sanctions on Israel for its refusal to allow humanitarian aid into Gaza and now over its brutal military attacks. Israel is a rogue nation and can no longer tug at our heartstrings as in danger of attack from Arab nations.

Israel is threatened by its own government much more than any external party. If the citizens of Israel will not reign in their government, the world must do it for them.

90 Responses to Israeli Overkill

  1. Doc_Holiday

    December 28, 2008 at 8:03 pm

    I don’t think any of you are understanding that Hamas is a terrorist organization plain and [expletive deleted] simple. It grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood, and has ties to Al Qaida. It’s end state is world domination. To start this they want to take back historically muslim countries from western influence. So it is no surprise to me what has been going on. Hamas is just pulling another play from there wickedly simple playbook. Generating under reported attacks, in order to get an over-reacted response from the government of Israel and then broadcasting it with it’s huge media arm. Making Israel (including the West) look like the bad guy.

  2. John1172002

    December 28, 2008 at 7:55 pm

    Check out this video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJ5CtzTQXPs

    Or Google “Sderot video” without the quote marks and see what you get. Hamas has as a WRITTEN part of their Constitution the eradication of Israel.

    Would you tolerate the same type of attacks on Plattsburg, NY from Canada? Or on Tucson AZ from Mexico? No? I didn’t think so.

    What is called for here, in my opinion, since this has lasted seven years, and suicide bombers much, much longer, is a variation of the “Pax Romana.” There are no “innocent civilians”, when the civilians are the ones who voted Hamas into power. Israel should invade northern Gaza, and literally decimate them. Kill one of every ten people. You cannot make peace with ANYBODY if you do not speak their language. And the only language Hamas understands is violence, the more brutal the better. They still send rockets? Fine. Decimate them again. Sooner or later, Hamas and Al Quaida will realize that other nations have finally caught on to their tactics, and are replying in kind.

    John1172002

    Some Texas village is missing its’ idiot. However, they just called and offered us money to keep him.

  3. DejaVuAllOver

    December 28, 2008 at 8:20 pm

    Israel’s response to any opposition to their thievery seems seems to be in direct proportion to the arrogance, propaganda and immorality of their policies. While I don’t care a hoot if the zionists eradicate themselves from the gene pool over a piece of land they never had much, if any, legitimate claim to, it gals me to no end that I’m forced to sponsor, finance, accept and thereby legitimize such depravity.
    Well said, Phil.

  4. Stan

    December 28, 2008 at 8:51 pm

    When Erika says: “What each “people” generally must figure out is how to conduct effective policing operations that take dangerous individuals off the streets without bringing whole populations they are trying to protect into the violence,” she doesn’t realize we’re not talking about “dangerous individuals,” we’re talking about the government.

    That’s tough to digest. Hamas is the government. It’s not deviants and crazies and terrorists who are shooting missiles into Israel, it’s a terrorist government. And to complicate matters even further, it’s a government that was elected by the people once upon a time.

    When the government of Gaza engages in terrorist behavior, that can’t be handled as a police action.

    When Israel pulled out of Gaza under the leadership of Sharon, it pulled out unilaterally. It ended the occupation without asking anything in return. That was a mistake. And Hamas translated the termination of the occupation as an act of weakness.

    There is, unfortunately, no reconciliation possible between Israel and Hamas. Like Al Quaida, Hamas can’t be reasoned with.

    They can’t be reasoned with; they don’t have the best interest of the Palestinians at heart; they’re a cancer in the body of the state. They’re a horror that even the Palestinians don’t know how to deal with. This is the Twilight Zone.

    The only solution is dealing with the problem in a wider context. Bring the neighborhood into a discussion of the problem. Bring Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt – bring them all into a roundtable discussion.

    Part of the reason the West Bank and Gaza are festering and suffering the way they are is because the other Arab states won’t let them move into their countries.

    Refugees from the horrors of the second world war and the holocaust were able to move and find new homes for themselves. The Palestinians would like to also, but they’re locked into that suffering prison they’re in.

    And the answer isn’t to let them all into Israel either. That’s why there’s a sporadic discussion of a two-state solution.

    This is a much more complicated problem than our moderator Phil would like to think it is.

  5. history guy

    December 28, 2008 at 9:08 pm

    DejaVu,
    Your comment about “a piece of land they never had much, if any, legitimate claim to,” was stunning in its lack of knowledge. Jerusalem has been the center of the Jewish religion and people since the 10th century BC. I believe their claim in quite strong.
    Yes, they respond 10 fold to all attacks. If you throw rocks at them, they will kill you for it. Over 50 years of Palestinian terrorism have not created a moderate people.
    No, America should not fund Israel.(they are the largest recipient of US foreign aid) Vote against your Congressman and Senator until they change who we give money to.
    If you have no more facts than you display, it is best to not speak til you have learned more, lest you embarrass your self.

  6. claypigeonbx

    December 28, 2008 at 9:31 pm

    If this were a religious war, it would be being fought in a mental institution. No faithful Jew, no faithful Christian (and many Palestinians are Christians) and no faithful Muslim sets out to spill the blood of innocent people. Only crazy people do that (like the perpetrator of the “Santa Claus” massacre.) Crazy people tend to gravitate toward religious symbols and images. That does not make them “religious.” There is no way any sane person could imagine that what is happening in Gaza right now can possibly accomplish anything except to deepen and intensify hostilities between people who have already given each other lots of reasons to hate each other. Who profits from this? Not the Palestinians. Not the Israelis. Maybe the bankers? The arms dealers? The folks who want to divide and conquer the world for corporate gain?

    Israel thinks it can use this assault to stop Hamas from launching rocket attacks? Come on. How can anyone believe that? What it really will do is guarantee that there will be another small army of 10 to 14 year-old boys and girls who will be totally prepared to strap the explosives to their bodies in the name of “justice” when their time comes. Don’t tell me Israel doesn’t know that after sixty years of this nonsense.

    Freedom and Justice for All!

  7. Baal

    December 28, 2008 at 11:08 pm

    Good article Phil…..

    Its time for the American TAXPAYER to cut the purse string to Israel. Let them fend for themselves.

  8. Baal

    December 28, 2008 at 11:21 pm

    “I don’t think any of you are understanding that Hamas is a terrorist organization plain and [expletive deleted] simple.”

    Curious Doc, Im sure the British Redcoats thought the same thing of OUR Guerilla fighters, who we so colloquially and admiringly called Patriots…

    After all, HAMAS was elected DEMOCRATICALLY, just like our government was.

    “Before I get to those, I want to point out that the election was monitored by the National Democratic Institute, with Jimmy Carter in the lead, and according to their analysis, the election was fair. ”

    http://electionupdates.caltech.edu/?p=199

    So, unless you wish to call Jimmy Carter a LIAR……

    Israel has rejected HAMAS, HAMAS has rejected Israel. They DESERVE each other….

  9. Carl Nemo

    January 12, 2009 at 5:31 pm

    I hate to frighten readers, but the outcome for this perennial, millenial old, internecine rancor between Israel and their regional neighbors has but one outcome and the clock is now in the sweephand mode to midnight; ie., theater level nuclear war, no doubt leading to a strategic showdown between the superpowers along with massive die-off of Palestinians, Syrians,Egyptians, Iranians along with collateral damage to other less openly hostile Arab nations enveloping nations far removed from the conflict.

    Many would say this is simply the endgame, the Armageddon of the Bible etc. Not really, its simply a bunch of people who’s religion and lifestyles are as oil is to water, never to mix. The Israeli’s as well as their Arab neighbors are a stiff-necked, contentious lot that are still operating in their neolithic modus operandi except they are now armed with modern weapons and nukes instead of bows, slings, spears and swords.

    There’s really no need for Iran to be so intransigent concerning nuclear inspections. If they allowed proper inspections of their nuclear facilities and it was verified that they were simply enriching uranium to the lower levels of concentration necessary for domestic power production then no doubt that would defuse the situation immensely, but Iran’s arrogant “crazies”; i.e., Mullahs are trying to reestablish Iran as a major, regional player in terms of nuclear and military capability. They are ultimately trying to reestablish the caliphate of old with Allah, their one god, their only god in their collective minds as the ruler of all. They do have public leaders, but these leaders have to clear everything with the religious “kingpins” as they do now even in Saudi Arabia and other Middle Eastern nations. Refuse to tow the mark and you end up in the cross hairs of the religious police whose powers transcend that of the civil authorities!?

    Iran is also supplying most of the radical elements in the Middle East including Hamas with both the money and the necessary conventional armaments to confront the U.S. in Iraq as well as Israel.

    Saddam, although a monster in his own right was the right man for the job in terms of keeping many fractious elements at bay allowing the region to maintain some element of stability.

    Thank you George W. Bush, Dick Cheney et al. driven by their flawed neocon agenda to stir up a regional “hornets nest” with their removal of Saddam…!

    People in the Middle East only respect rule through overt strength, albeit good or bad, gravitating towards strongmen or Mullah’s for their guidance and leadership. Their religion is so entertwined with their politics that never shall the two find separation except as under someone like Saddam who did not tolerate the meddling of religious factions within his government. He knew all too well the downside to their toxic meddling.

    Israel will not wait for Iran to tout how it now has it’s first nuclear capable IRBM targeting them. They are sitting on minimally 100 plus thermonuclear single delivery and MRV’d warheads with the capability of delivering them with the same efficacy as the United States. I personally believe when the sweephand hits midnight then they should be the one’s to throw the lights out switch on civilization as we know it.

    Why should the U.S. do their insanely motivated dirty work?! I, like so many other planetary citizens are exhausted by Israel, their neighbors and the endless b.s. that’s associated with their regional dog and pony show. Get in on and get it over! At least survivors wherever won’t have to contend with supporting this insane, endless nonsense until the 12th of forever.

    The human race itself will survive, especially south of the equator, but it will never achieve it’s current level of sophistication for a long time to come. It will be the dawning of a new “dark age” for humanity… : |

    Carl Nemo **==

  10. Flapsaddle

    December 29, 2008 at 10:28 am

    Wars are about overkill! Why would you want – or be stupid enough? – to fight a “fair” war? War is not about fairness or symmetry or balanced response, it is about inflicting death and destruction on the opponent.

    From a strictly military point of view, the line by Sean Connery in The Untouchables says it quite succinctly: “If one of them pulls a knife, you pull a gun. If they send one of yours to the hospital, you send one of theirs to the morgue.”

    We should not be underwriting either Israel or the Arabs in the region. Israel does not need us to protect its own borders and/or interests; for the present and the foreseeable future, there is no likely combination of Arab/Muslim military power that can defeat Israel. Nor do we need to be swapping saliva with the “Palestinians”; ultimately, their interests are in conflict with our own.

    Most sincerely,

    T. J. Flapsaddle

  11. adamrussell

    December 29, 2008 at 10:34 am

    The fact that Hamas was elected does not absolve them of the crimes of terrorism. It just makes the voters guilty of voting for terrorism.

  12. adamrussell

    December 29, 2008 at 10:39 am

    The people of Gaza are not in general innocent, any more than the people of Germany were innocent in WW2. True, some are. But they as a people voted for Hamas. They voted for terrorism.

  13. John1172002

    December 29, 2008 at 2:08 pm

    Carl Nemo is largely correct, and I won’t pick bones with him about his views. We differ on some aspects of the problem, but I suspect we can agree to respectfully disagree.

    However, the views of many of the rest sound Neo-Nazi to me. What would you have the Israeli people do, supply the Palestinians with the ovens and the Zyklon-B gas? My God, don’t they have the right to defend themselves?

    And as for those of you taking swipes only at Israel, don’t you know that the Gaza strip has a Southern border with Egypt? How come Egypt doesn’t come in for some flack for not helping “the poor, poor, Palestinians”?

    My heart bleeds for those who elected a terrorist government…..NOT!!!

    John1172002

    Some Texas village is missing its’ idiot. However, they just called and offered us money to keep him.
    1/20/09- The End of an Error.

  14. Bluesman2007

    December 29, 2008 at 6:12 pm

    I find the “outrage” expressed in Arab countries against Israel’s actions interesting. Where was the Arab “outrage” over Hamas routinely bombing Israel? There was NONE!

    Some people call Israel’s actions “disproportionate”. Roughly 12 arabs were responsible for 9/11 and, in response, the USA killed tens of thousands of Iraqis who had nothing to do whatsoever with 9/11 not to mention the over four thousand American lives lost in Iraq (so far). Now THAT is disproportionate.

    Some people say that killing in response to killing is wrong. We put convicted killers to death all the time in the USA notwithstanding the fact that it is no deterrent to further murders. It is what it is. Retaliation and revenge. We call it justice.

    Lastly, Hamas is a terrorist organization. They don’t wear uniforms. They don’t fight conventional wars. They hide amongst civilians and then complain that civilians get killed when Israel retaliates. What’s wrong with this picture? Unless and until Hamas realizes there will always be consequences if they indiscriminantly bomb Israeli cities, this conflict will never end. As long as Hamas (and Iran as well for that matter) remain committed to wiping Israel off the map (as they have openly stated is the case) this conflict will never end. You can’t negotiate with terrorists. We won’t. Neither will Israel although god knows they’ve tried to no avail. But where is the Arab outrage at Hamas? Anybody?

    The Palestinians CHOSE Hamas in democratic elections so there ARE no innocents as far as I’m concerned. It’s exactly the same as the American people electing Bush for a second term. There are no innocents there either. But at least, since we’ve elected Obama, we have at least corrected OUR mistakes. Will the Palestinians ever do likewise? Time will tell.

  15. Doc_Holiday

    December 29, 2008 at 7:23 pm

    Right on Bluesman!!!

  16. Doc_Holiday

    December 29, 2008 at 9:26 pm

    Some reading material for those individuals less educated amoung us.

    Hamas grew out of the Muslim Brotherhood, a religious and political organization founded in Egypt with branches throughout the Arab world. Beginning in the late 1960s, Hamas’s founder and spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, preached and did charitable work in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, both of which were occupied by Israel following the 1967 Six-Day War. In 1973, Yassin established al-Mujamma’ al-Islami (the Islamic Center) to coordinate the Muslim Brotherhood’s political activities in Gaza. Yassin founded Hamas as the Muslim Brotherhood’s local political arm in December 1987, following the eruption of the first intifada, a Palestinian uprising against Israeli control of the West Bank and Gaza. Hamas published its official charter in 1988.

    The Muslim Brotherhood was founded in 1928 by the Egyptian activist Hasan al-Banna, the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood is one of the oldest, largest and most influential Islamist organizations. Egypt has historically been the center of the Brotherhood’s operations, though the group maintains offshoots throughout the Arab-Muslim world — including in Afghanistan, Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Jordan, the Palestinian territories (Hamas), Saudi Arabia, Syria, and Sudan — and is also active in the United States and Europe. Islam expert Robert Spencer has called the Muslim Brotherhood “the parent organization of Hamas and al Qaeda.”

    Some may not know this but the Muslim Brotherhood also has branches in the United States under the guise of the Muslim Students’ Associaction.

    The Brotherhood was founded in accordance with al-Banna’s proclamation that Islam be “given hegemony over all matters of life.” Accordingly, the Brotherhood seeks to establish an Islamic Caliphate spanning the entire Muslim world. It also aspires to make Islamic (Shari’a) law the sole basis of jurisprudence and governance. Toward this purpose — encapsulated in the Brotherhood’s militant credo: “God is our objective, the Koran is our Constitution, the Prophet is our leader, struggle is our way, and death for the sake of God is the highest of our aspirations” — the Brotherhood since its founding has supported the use of armed struggle, or jihad. The Brotherhood supports the waging of jihad against non-Muslim “infidels,” and has expressed support for terrorism against Israel, whose legitimacy the Brotherhood does not recognize, and against the West, particularly the United States.

    In recent years, the Brotherhood has attempted to forge a reputation as a moderate and reformist Islamic group that has renounced its violent past. Lending plausibility to this reputation has been criticism of the organization by radical Islamist groups, who have condemned the Brotherhood’s willingness to participate in the political process as heretical. These groups have also criticized the Brotherhood for supposedly abandoning violent struggle as a means of establishing an Islamic empire.

    However, numerous statements by the Brotherhood’s leadership believe its moderate posture. Ali Sadreddine Bayanouni, the leader of the Syrian Muslim Brotherhood, has repeatedly disavowed violence while concurrently pledging his support for the terrorism of Hamas and Hezbollah. Muhammad Mahdi Othman Akef, a prominent leader of the Brotherhood, has expressed his support for suicide bombings in Israel and Iraq “in order to expel the Zionists and the Americans.” He has also denounced the United States as a “Satan,” saying: “I have complete faith that Islam will invade Europe and America, because Islam has logic and a mission.” Many other leaders of the Brotherhood have likewise justified terrorism against Israel and the United States, with many defending the September 11 terrorist attacks against America. Jews are another common object of the Brotherhood’s hatred. Of the Jewish people, Sheik Yousef Al-Qaradhawi, the spiritual leader of the Brotherhood, has written: “There is no dialogue between them and us other than in one language — the language of the sword and force.”

    Even as it is deemed insufficiently militant by some Islamist groups, the Brotherhood has had a discernible influence on contemporary jihadist terrorism. Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, the architect of 9/11, was a member of Muslim Brotherhood. More prominently still, Abdullah Azzam, a Palestinian Muslim Brotherhood preacher, was a mentor to al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

    This is why I don’t cry at night over the blood of Hamas.

  17. bryan mcclellan

    December 29, 2008 at 7:29 pm

    Extremely dry eyes here also Doc. Thanks for the background info.

  18. JerryG

    December 29, 2008 at 7:38 pm

    Sorry man, but I just can’t get behind the people of Israel halting their Gaza incursion. Hamas and the residents of Gaza were given a modicum of autonomy and they’ve blown it, pun intended!

    Gaza is infested with a terrorist mentality and philosophy. They’re an Islamic cancer!

  19. claypigeonbx

    December 30, 2008 at 12:13 am

    Who said the people of Gaza were innocent? But since you have brought the subject up…the people of Gaza are no more innocent than the people of Israel…or the people of the United States, for that matter. We all elect and tolerate leaders who authorize the killing of human beings who ARE innocent…children, for example.

    Freedom and Justice for All!

  20. adamrussell

    December 30, 2008 at 12:33 am

    “Who said the people of Gaza were innocent”?
    The people that say Israel has no right to bomb Gaza for the acts of Hamas, because they might kill “innocent” civilians, thats who said they are innocent. That answer your question? Did you have a point or are you just trying to muddy the debate by implying both that there are and are not any innocents?

  21. adamrussell

    December 30, 2008 at 12:41 am

    Exactly. Israel did the proverbial “count to 10″ and warned them to stop it or else. Thats more than *any* other country in the world would have done imo.

    Im still not sure what it is that Hamas wants Israel to do. Can they really be that stupid to expect Israel to just give up and die? Israel is already out of Gaza, right? Do they want permission to send suicide bombers into Israel? Do they think Jews are fools?

    After all is said and done though, I dont understand why we give Israel money. They’re richer than us arent they?

  22. claypigeonbx

    December 30, 2008 at 3:10 am

    My point had nothing to do with innocence or guilt, which is why I wondered why you replied to it as you did. My point is that assaulting people and destroying their property tends to make them angry, not submissive. Therefore, Israel’s current assault in Gaza is more likely to decrease Israel’s security rather than improve it.

    Freedom and Justice for All!

  23. adamrussell

    December 30, 2008 at 11:16 am

    Its war. Israel didnt want war, but it was forced on them. In any war there are only 2 choices. You either fight back or you find a diplomatic solution. Hamas offers no rational diplomatic solution.

  24. Baal

    December 30, 2008 at 6:30 pm

    “The fact that Hamas was elected does not absolve them of the crimes of terrorism. It just makes the voters guilty of voting for terrorism.”

    So Adam, you dont mind when the Palestinians throw rocks, and then get Apache Helicopters as a response….??

    How very ZIONIST of you….

    How many Israelis were killed by those HAMAS Missiles again? How many Palestinian CHILDREN have been KILLED?

    HAMAS only responded due to the CRAP that Israel has been pulling on the Gaza Strip for months.

    Israel has crossed the line this time, and its high time for America to CUT the purse strings on Israel & tell AIPAC to go pound sand!!

  25. Baal

    December 30, 2008 at 6:35 pm

    “Jerusalem has been the center of the Jewish religion and people since the 10th century BC. I believe their claim in quite strong.”

    DOCUMENTATION history guy. UNBIASED documentation please…and the Bible does NOT count as an unbiased source.

    And I imagine all the other tribes in the area just left the region, huh? Best land in the area, and every other tribe just gave it up w/o a fight…HMMMM, pretty lame argument.

    If 11th century scribblings are your guidepost, I should be able to go back to my native homeland, Germany, and kick those squatters off my land….

  26. Baal

    December 30, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    “How come Egypt doesn’t come in for some flack for not helping “the poor, poor, Palestinians”? ”

    Egypt has been PAID OFF, in order to look the other way… to the tune of MILLIONS of American dollars.

    http://www.france24.com/en/20081228-egypt-police-repel-palestinians-tense-gaza-border

    “Egyptian police fired in the air near the Gaza border town of Rafah on Sunday to prevent Palestinians entering Egypt after Israel launched air strikes to destroy tunnels along the tense frontier.

    “Dozens of civilians tried to break through the Barahma crossing after Israel launched air strikes along the Gaza-Egypt border. They were repelled by Egyptian police firing in the air,” the official said.”

  27. Baal

    December 30, 2008 at 6:53 pm

    “This is why I don’t cry at night over the blood of Hamas.”

    Yeah, it appears you dont cry over the blood of DEAD CHILDREN either……

    How very ZIONIST of you…

  28. incog99

    December 30, 2008 at 8:09 pm

    We can all take action now. Boycott Israeli interests. Money talks. This is something we all can do now. Just google “boycott israel” and you will find lists of companies owned and operated by Israel. The names may suprise you, like Home Depot, Coke and Sara Lee.

    As Obama said if my children were threatened I would fight back. Today more Palestinian children are in danger than Israeli children. The sword slices both ways.

    If you really care, boycott Israeli companies NOW.

    incog99

  29. Baal

    December 30, 2008 at 9:27 pm

    I wonder what threat a bunch of Doctors were to Israel?? Maybe they were afraid the TRUTH about the killings would leak out to the world, and spoil their media campaign about how threatened they are by the rock throwing terrorists of HAMAS…

    I guess when they cant shoot and kill 12 & 14 year old girls on their way to school, they go for the Doctors instead…

    Gaza relief boat damaged in encounter with Israeli vessel.

    “CNN correspondent Karl Penhaul was aboard the 60-foot pleasure boat Dignity when the contact occurred. When the boat later docked in the Lebanese port city of Tyre, severe damage was visible to the forward port side of the boat, and the front left window and part of the roof had collapsed. It was flying the flag of Gibraltar.

    The Dignity was carrying crew and 16 passengers — physicians from Britain, Germany and Cyprus and human rights activists from the Free Gaza Solidarity Movement — who were trying to reach Gaza through an Israeli blockade of the territory.”

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/30/gaza.aid.boat/index.html

  30. John1172002

    December 30, 2008 at 7:25 pm

    “Egypt has been PAID OFF, in order to look the other way… to the tune of MILLIONS of American dollars.”
    **************************
    A source – unbiased – would be appreciated. Or are you looking at foreign aid figures? In which case, how does that equate to being a pay-off?

    As for “NO Israelis killed by Hamas’ rocket fire” – I don’t remember who made this allegation – from

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/30/AR2008123000222.html

    “Four Israelis have been killed.”

    This is at the end of a fairly long article pitying the poor, poor Palestinians – who ELECTED a terrorist government.

    And, I might add, a hell of a lot more Israelis have been killed by Palestinian suicide bombers – or don’t they count??

    John1172002

    Some Texas village is missing its’ idiot. However, they just called and offered us money to keep him.
    1/20/09 – The end of an error.

  31. Doc_Holiday

    December 30, 2008 at 7:26 pm

    Expound Baal upon your comment “HAMAS only responded due to the CRAP that Israel has been pulling on the Gaza Strip for months.” What exactly has Israel done to merrit being attacked daily by rockets?

  32. claypigeonbx

    December 30, 2008 at 10:57 pm

    I just can’t get my head around the idea that bombing a civilian population is war. To me, it just looks like a massacre. However intransigent Hamas may be (and I’m really not convinced that they are as intransigent as they have been painted), I simply can’t see how there is any justification for slaughtering people who do not have the means to defend themselves, even if you assume that they definitely would shoot back if they could.

    Freedom and Justice for All!

  33. adamrussell

    December 31, 2008 at 12:45 am

    What would you suggest Israel do instead? There are only 2 choices in war – fight or diplomacy. Since Hamas will not negotiate there is only war.

  34. Stan

    December 31, 2008 at 2:16 am

    So Baal I haven’t heard your response yet to the question: “What crap has Israel been pulling on the Gaza Strip?”

    Please let us know so we can understand how Israel has crossed the line.

    Your silence speaks volumes. You have nothing but lies to offer, do you?

  35. claypigeonbx

    December 31, 2008 at 3:02 am

    You’re quite sure Hamas won’t negotiate? Must be you didn’t see this: http://www.imemc.org/article/58125 It seems to me that this time it was Israel that refused to negotiate.

    Freedom and Justice for All!

  36. Bluesman2007

    December 31, 2008 at 6:46 am

    So what should Israel do? Just turn the other cheek? Smile and say “more rockets please”? You have to be out of your mind. No one in their right might would do that.

    “My point is that assaulting people and destroying their property tends to make them angry, not submissive. Therefore, Israel’s current assault in Gaza is more likely to decrease Israel’s security rather than improve it.”

    Whoaaaaa there. Back up the truck. I believe it was Hamas rocket attacks that started this or did you not get the memo?

  37. John1172002

    December 31, 2008 at 3:21 pm

    Submitted by Baal on December 30, 2008 – 7:53pm.

    “This is why I don’t cry at night over the blood of Hamas.”

    Yeah, it appears you dont cry over the blood of DEAD CHILDREN either……

    How very ZIONIST of you…”

    Why, Baal, what a remark, practically equating the word “Zionist” with “piece of feces”. You wouldn’t have chosen your screen name, the god that the Israelites were strictly forbidden to worship because you are an anti-Semite, huh??????

    From

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

    “Zionism is an international political movement that originally supported the reestablishment of a homeland for the Jewish People in Palestine (Hebrew: Eretz Yisra’el, “the Land of Israel”), and continues primarily as support for the modern state of Israel.”

    You see anything to object to there, hmmmmmm??? The United Nations made Israel a nation in 1948, and ever since then, the Arabs have tried to deatroy her. Why? Because in the words of one of their Imams, Israelis “are the descendants of dogs and pigs and monkeys.”
    Perchance you agree with the Imam?

    John1172002

    Some Texas village is missing its’ idiot. However, they just called and offered us money to keep him.

  38. John1172002

    December 31, 2008 at 6:30 pm

    Yes, I’m quite sure. Maybe you haven’t seen this:

    From

    http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/2008/12/hamas-refuses-to-renew-gaza-truce.html

    Monday, December 15, 2008
    Hamas refuses to renew Gaza truce
    Hamas
    December 15, 2008

    THE Palestinian Islamist movement Hamas which controls Gaza said overnight that a troubled Cairo-brokered truce with Israel will not be renewed when it runs out later this week.

    But a spokesman for outgoing Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert insisted his government remained keen to see the six-month-old truce extended beyond Thursday provided Hamas halted rocket and mortar fire against southern Israel.

    ***************************************
    Note that this is from an Islamic website.

    John1172002

    Some Texas village is missing its’ idiot. However, they just called and offered us money to keep him.

  39. John1172002

    December 31, 2008 at 6:48 pm

    Phil Hoskins,

    I have been on this website for some years, and you have many times “outed” yourself as being gay. Don’t you realize that if the Islamic world gets its way, and a worldwide Caliphate is established, you and all other gays in the world will be lined up for the railroad cattle cars for a one-way ticket to their ovens?

    How in the name of all that is holy could you write such a biased, anti-Semitic article? Look at that YouTube video I referenced earlier. See the pallet loads of missle bodies in ranks around the buildings? They came from Gaza, each with a payload of shrapnel. What do you expect the Israelis to do? Stand around and go “Ho-hum. If they kill me, or my wife, or my children, that’s OK”??

    John1172002

    Some Texas village is missing its’ idiot. However, they just called and offered us money to keep him.

  40. Phil Hoskins

    December 31, 2008 at 8:19 pm

    John, I wrote in opposition to the Israeli military actions, not in defense of Hamas nor any effort to establish a Caliphate. It is entirely possible, I suggest, to chew gum and walk at the same time.

    I see nothing gained by excessive military force in Gaza nor anywhere else. It has never solved any problems there and is unlikely to now or in the future.

    My being gay has nothing to do with it and it seems to me you must be really desperate to try to bring that into the discussion.

    For that matter, orthodox Jews would do away with gays too, so I don’t think your point is valid.

    Phil Hoskins

  41. John1172002

    December 31, 2008 at 9:06 pm

    quote:
    Hamas Charter (1988)

    The Charter of Allah: The Platform of the Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas)

    (What Serves for The Mission Statement)

    “In the Name of Allah, the Merciful, the Compassionate You are the best community that has been raised up for mankind. Ye enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency; and ye believe in Allah. And if the People of the Scripture had believed, it had been better for them. Some of them are believers; but most of them are evil-doers. They will not harm you save a trifling hurt, and if they fight against you they will turn and flee. And afterward they will not be helped. Ignominy shall be their portion wheresoever they are found save [where they grasp] a rope from Allah and a rope from man. They have incurred anger from their Lord, and wretchedness is laid upon them. That is because they used to disbelieve the revelations of Allah, and slew the Prophets wrongfully. That is because they were rebellious and used to transgress.” Surat Al-Imran (III), verses 109-111 Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors. The Islamic World is burning. It is incumbent upon each one of us to pour some water, little as it may be, with a view of extinguishing as much of the fire as he can, without awaiting action by the others.

    [First reference to annihilation of Israel.]

    Introduction

    …the Islamic Resistance Movement erupted in order to play its role in the path of its Lord. In so doing, it joined its hands with those of all Jihad fighters for the purpose of liberating Palestine. The souls of its Jihad fighters will encounter those of all Jihad fighters who have sacrificed their lives in the land of Palestine since it was conquered by the Companion of the Prophet, be Allah’s prayer and peace upon him, and until this very day. This is the Charter of the Islamic Resistance (Hamas) which will reveal its face, unveil its identity, state its position, clarify its purpose, discuss its hopes, call for support to its cause and reinforcement, and for joining its ranks. For our struggle against the Jews is extremely wide-ranging and grave, so much so that it will need all the loyal efforts we can wield, to be followed by further steps and reinforced by successive battalions from the multifarious Arab and Islamic world, until the enemies are defeated and Allah’s victory prevails. Thus we shall perceive them approaching in the horizon, and this will be known before long: “Allah has decreed: Lo! I very shall conquer, I and my messenger, lo! Allah is strong, almighty.”

    [Second reference to Israel and the annihilation of the Jews.]

    Article 7

    …………….The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!

    And this isn’t a threat??????????????????????

    Article 13

    …Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? “And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed.

    [i][A reference to the evil being done by the Jews AND the Christians.] [/i]

    Article 14

    The Muslim women have a no lesser role than that of men in the war of liberation; they manufacture men and play a great role in guiding and educating the [new] generation. The enemies have understood that role, therefore they realize that if they can guide and educate [the Muslim women] in a way that would distance them from Islam, they would have won that war. Therefore, you can see them making consistent efforts [in that direction] by way of publicity and movies, curricula of education and culture, using as their intermediaries their craftsmen who are part of the various Zionist Organizations which take on all sorts of names and shapes such as: the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, gangs of spies and the like. All of them are nests of saboteurs and sabotage. Those Zionist organizations control vast material resources, which enable them to fulfill their mission amidst societies, with a view of implementing Zionist goals and sowing the concepts that can be of use to the enemy. Those organizations operate [in a situation] where Islam is absent from the arena and alienated from its people. Thus, the Muslims must fulfill their duty in confronting the schemes of those saboteurs. When Islam will retake possession of [the means to] guide the life [of the Muslims], it will wipe out those organizations which are the enemy of humanity and Islam.

    [Wipe out = Annihilation. According to the Hamas Charter those who do not accept Allah as the God of the World, and Islam as their religion, will all be exterminated; including the JEWS and the CHRISTIANS.]

    Epilogue

    The Hamas,…will only be of help to all associations and organizations which act against the Zionist enemy and those who revolve in its orbit. Hamas posits Islam as a way of life, it is its faith and its yardstick for judging. Whoever posits Islam as a way of life, anywhere, and regardless of whether it is an organization, a state, or any other group, Hamas are its soldiers, nothing else.

    From:

    http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/documents/charter.html

    I triple-dog-dare any one of you who have made anti-Isreali posts to reply and tell me exactly how on Earth you can have a peace with anyone whose publicly stated purpose is to kill you, and who adamantly refuses to come to a truce table, and if they do, then adamantly refuses to abide by that truce. Remember, those rockets did not fire themselves during the “Truce”.

    And also remember, they are talking about Christians, too. (Pastor Agnostic, I guess this means your life is safe, as long as you pay the tax the followers of Islam impose upon “Infidels”.) I guess my neck is on the chopping block, since I have been a born-again Christian since 1975.

    John1172002

  42. John1172002

    December 31, 2008 at 9:29 pm

    John, I wrote in opposition to the Israeli military actions, not in defense of Hamas nor any effort to establish a Caliphate. It is entirely possible, I suggest, to chew gum and walk at the same time.

    I see nothing gained by excessive military force in Gaza nor anywhere else. It has never solved any problems there and is unlikely to now or in the future.

    My being gay has nothing to do with it and it seems to me you must be really desperate to try to bring that into the discussion.

    For that matter, orthodox Jews would do away with gays too, so I don’t think your point is valid.

    Phil Hoskins

    ******************************
    Phil,

    If the Muslims accomplish their stated goal of a world-wide Caliphate, your being gay will have a lot to do with it, as will my being a born-again Christian.

    And I’ve never heard of Orthodox Jews being suicide bombers, or firing rockets into another nation.

    Also, your article came across as blaming the Israelis, with Hamas being totally innocent of any wrongdoing.

    John1172002

    Some Texas village is missing its’ idiot. However, they just called and offered us money to keep him.

  43. John1172002

    December 31, 2008 at 9:59 pm

    Phil,

    You might want to re-consider your claim that “orthodox Jews would do away with gays too.”

    From:

    http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-116.html

    “Israel remains the only country in the Middle East to declare homosexuality as legal and is reportedly moving towards a civil partnership scheme that will benefit gay couples.”

    John1172002

    Some Texas village is missing its’ idiot. However, they just called and offered us money to keep him.

  44. Baal

    January 1, 2009 at 8:30 pm

    “It had no intention of allowing a comprehensive peace settlement when Egypt stood ready to deliver but received, and obediently accepted, a separate peace exclusive of the rights of Palestinians and the remaining peoples of the region.”

    http://www.counterpunch.org/

    “And, I might add, a hell of a lot more Israelis have been killed by Palestinian suicide bombers – or don’t they count??”

    When they deliberately target and KILL innocent CHILDREN and bomb CIVILIAN homes? When the IDF shoots a 12 year old girl in the head while she was herding sheep?

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/831805.html

    NO, they do NOT count…. for THEY set up the game, made the rules and have made it very clear that THEY will NEVER accept a Palestinian State on thier border… They have consistantly REJECTED the Two State peace solution.

    Israel has gone rogue, and its time for America to cut the purse strings.

  45. Baal

    January 1, 2009 at 8:42 pm

    “Don’t you realize that if the Islamic world gets its way, and a worldwide Caliphate is established, you and all other gays in the world will be lined up for the railroad cattle cars for a one-way ticket to their ovens? ”

    John, I know some “Christians” who would do the same thing if they were in a similar situation.

    Abortion Doctor hit list ring a bell??

    The Middle East “problem” should be addressed by us atheists, since we think both of your “belief systems” are a threat to civilized society because all it does is create divisiveness and hatred…

    Imagine, claiming exclusive rights to some land just because a 2000 year old book says you have the right to it….

    Pretty nifty deal considering the folks who wrote the book, begat the ones making the claims to the land.

  46. claypigeonbx

    January 1, 2009 at 9:42 pm

    Odd. I seem to remember having read some passages in “The Book” talking about how Israel was supposed to deal with “the people of the land” which might well have served as models for the Hamas document quoted above. And aren’t the Palestinians Semites. I thought they were. I’ll go check that out right now.

    Freedom and Justice for All!

  47. Baal

    January 2, 2009 at 6:05 pm

    “You see anything to object to there, hmmmmmm??? The United Nations made Israel a nation in 1948, and ever since then, the Arabs have tried to deatroy her. Why? Because in the words of one of their Imams, Israelis “are the descendants of dogs and pigs and monkeys.”
    Perchance you agree with the Imam?”

    John, Israel was unilaterally created by the WESTERN POWERS, with absolutely NO input from Arab nations in the region…

    Imans are typically uneducated, religious whack jobs. Do you judge all people from Kansas based on the rantings of the pastor from Westburo Baptist church? If not, why not?

    DOUBLE STANDARD, perhaps?

    Judging an entire culture and race based on the inane rantings of a religious nut case is hardly trying to find common ground….

    I call your references to whack job Imans, and raise you Israels REFUSAL to recognize any DEMOCRATICALLY elected government of the Palestinian peoples.

    Until the Palestinians have a VOICE in our government equally as free & respected as AIPACS, peace will NEVER come to the Mid-East.

    Oh, heres a link so you can read up on Egypt getting PAID OFF, not to interfere in Gaza…

    http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/394574_fiskonline03.html

    “Egyptians demand that Mubarak open the Rafah crossing-point into Gaza, break off diplomatic relations with Israel, even send weapons to Hamas. And there is a kind of perverse beauty in listening to the response of the Egyptian government: why not complain about the three gates that the Israelis refuse to open? And anyway, the Rafah crossing-point is politically controlled by the four powers that produced the “road map” for peace, including Britain and the U.S. Why blame Mubarak?

    To admit that Egypt can’t even open its sovereign border without permission from Washington tells you all you need to know about the powerlessness of the satraps that run the Middle East for us.

    Open the Rafah gate — or break off relations with Israel — and Egypt’s economic foundations crumble. Any Arab leader who took that kind of step will find that the West’s economic and military support is withdrawn.

    Without subventions, Egypt is bankrupt. Of course, it works both ways.”

  48. Baal

    January 2, 2009 at 6:20 pm

    Seems like your BOOK says the same thing John…..

    KILL THEM ALL!!!!

    Deuteronomy 20

    “When the LORD your God hands the city over to you, kill every man in that city with your swords. 14 But take the women and children, the cattle and everything else in the city, including all its goods, as your loot. You may enjoy your enemies’ goods that the LORD your God has given you. 15 This is what you must do to all the cities that are far away which don’t belong to the nations nearby. 16 However, you must not spare anyone’s life in the cities of these nations that the LORD your God is giving you as your property. 17 You must claim the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites for the LORD and completely destroy them, as the LORD your God has commanded you. 18 Otherwise, they will teach you to do all the disgusting things they do for their gods, and you will sin against the LORD your God.

    Isnt it a terrible thing to be a DOUBLE STANDARD HYPOCRITE??.. especially when one uses their invisible cloud being to justify that hatred.

  49. John1172002

    January 2, 2009 at 7:16 pm

    Yeah, I know all about the God of the Old Testament telling the Israelis to kill every living thing in the towns they conquered. That was a common practice of warfare at that time. But this is 2009 AD, not 2009 BC. And the important thing is to remember that you cannot make peace with:
    1. people who have as their written, stated mission your eradication.
    and
    2. people who act upon that mission statement, regardless of any “truce” that happens to be in place – over 5,000 rockets have been fired into Israel.
    and
    3. people whose leaders only speak the language of violence, the worse the violence the better.

    All they understand is violence greater than they can inflict. Read their Charter above. They have NO interest in a peace treaty. Their ONLY interest is in wiping Israel off the map (as a matter of fact, their maps don’t even have Israel on them) and killing every Jew in the world.

    If you are defending Hamas, you are defending Hitler. “Schtoke up the ovens, Adolph! And get out a bigger supply of Zyklon-B gas!”

    THAT is what you are saying, like it or not.

    John1172002

    Some Texas village is missing its’ idiot. However, they just called and offered us money to keep him.

  50. Chick

    January 2, 2009 at 7:40 pm

    You can prove ANY position using the bible if you are willing to ignore some versus while clinging to others.

    There is enough Kool-Aid to go around for every position.

    Enjoy.