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October 5, 2008 - 6:42pm.
I wasn't a radical like Bill Ayers, but I knew young men and women very much like him. While I disagreed with violent protests, what we'd be justified in calling domestic terrorism today, I understood their motivations very well. I was a student at Michigan State, one of the primary campuses where the anti-war movement took shape (link)*. I was an anti-war protester and leader of my graduate department's student anti-war group. I knew several members of the SDS (Students for a Democratic Society) and very possibly a Weatherman or Black Panther, at least to say hello to. Did that make me a pal of terrorists? Hardly. There's no proof Barack Obama and Bill Ayers are or were anything but associates in one or two endeavors, and neighbors. Palin, and subsequently Republican pontificaters, are making a big point about the New York Times article "Obama and ’60s Bomber: A Look Into Crossed Paths", studiously ignoring the last two words of the headline and the text which explains that their association was minimal. But that begs the issues. So what if they were now really close buddies? Ayers by any accounts is as patriotic an American today as any of us, McCain and Palin included. To understand the fear and fervor that led to people like William Ayers to engage in violent anti-war protests you'd either have to have been there or be a pretty damn good historian of the era. McCain wasn't there. He was being the good soldier, aviator in his case, following the family tradition, no doubt believing in the rightness of the cause. Of course he missed the anti-war movement entirely having been a POW. Palin, had she been old enough, would probably have been one of the "America, Love it or Leave It" types who believed in the mantra "our country right or wrong" pro-war zealots. But in those days we were zealots on both sides. Few people had no opinion. I remember one pro-war man got so enraged at anti-war protesters that he drove his car through a march of some 20,000 men, women and children as it made its way from the university to the state capitol building. He injured several people. 58,260 names are carved in polished black granite on the Vietnam Memorial Wall thanks to American politicians, and there would likely have been more if there was no public hue and cry to get the hell out. I once got out of a movie and smelled tear gas wafting in the wind. I looked up the street and saw crowds of police and students, I saw rocks hurled and windows of stores being broken. On another occasion I watched a group of students come into the student union with their heads all bloody. They been at a small protest where the police had beaten them with billy clubs because they wouldn't disperse. Undercover FBI and police agents not only infiltrated student groups but tried to incite groups wanting to protest peacefully into committing violent acts. Peaceful demonstrators were always being photographed from rooftops, we now know, by members of what was called the Michigan State Police Red Squad. This was a time of us against them and the "them" was the United State government. The "them" was drafting us and sending us to kill, die or be maimed in a useless war. As students we studied this, and in many cases we knew more than the general public who were being fed propaganda. I managed to stay out of the military as did most of my student friends, but we watched others not lucky enough to get low lottery numbers or deferments ship out, some never to return, and others to come back as broken human beings. In my own career as the director of a mental health center a decade later I started one of the first PTSD treatment programs for Vietnam veterans which wasn't part of the Veteran's Administration. (Eventually I contracted with the VA to pay for a therapist. * see below) The next worst thing to being there or having lost a loved one in the war was having a vet with PTSD who you were close to. My staff and I got to know many veterans very well. They brought the war home in the form of severe PTSD and their struggles and suffering profoundly effected us. Our evening therapy groups never ended on time and usually spilled out into the parking lot where members stayed on to talk after I had to lock up and go home myself. The police never minded since some of our members were police officers themselves. Our program helped a lot of vets but we also had a suicide, a spouse's suicide, a suicide homicide, and a death from agent orange caused cancer. And that was the worst. I got to know many vets who despite the best therapy possible would live with indelible scars, memories not only of the typical horrors of war but of things they did that they could never forgive themselves for. So, Sarah Palin, just shut up about Bill Ayers. You don't know anything. * Michigan State anti-war protests
Michigan State University gained notoriety with a 1966 Ramparts Magazine article. It was a cover story with a drawing of Vietnamese first lady Madame Nhu as a MSU cheerleader, "The University on the Make". This article is "a specific, if shocking, documentation of the degree of corruption and abject immorality attending a university which puts its academic respectability on lend-lease to American foreign policy." The article exposed the cooperation between MSU and the CIA that occurred during the 1960’s. **My experience with Vietnam vets a decade after the war.
Picture: Nov. 4, 1982 Ingham County News, articles about Mason Mental Health's Vietnam vets program. Our program began in November of 1981 without any involvement with the VA. Not a veteran myself, I had been working with a few Vietnam combat veterans in therapy. They were involved in a Vietnam veterans' organization and were contacted by the local PBS television station, WKAR in East Lansing, MI, to put together a group to take phone calls at the station after they aired a special on post Vietnam stress syndrome. They suggested that I be one of the resource people available, not to take calls, but to assist those vets who were. The phone calls began to pour in after the program and I decided on the spot to offer a group at Mason Mental Health for any vets who wanted to attend. A few nights later 25 showed up for the first of many vets groups, and spin-off groups for spouses of vets. That was how we did business in those days. If we saw a need, we tried to met it. We weren't volunteers, one of "the thousand points of light." We were paid for what we did, but we did it because it needed to be done. The real heroes of the Vietnam veterans programs were the clients themselves. They hung together and helped each other through touch times as they dealt with inner demons. One man in particular went on to be appointed to the Governor's Agent Orange Commission where he distinguished himself, until he succumbed to a cancer that was probably caused by agent orange. I am certain he would give me permission to publish his name as he made no secret of having been part of the Mason Mental Health program as a client. I still have to maintain his confidentiality, but those who read this will know who he is. I would have liked to keep the program independent from the VA, but I knew that I needed to hire a Vietnam veteran who was also a professional psychotherapist, and there weren't many of them around. So when VA funds became available I wrote the grant and we were able to hire the first of several dedicated therapists. Unfortunately, the VA took over much of the control of the program and while it continued almost until Mason Mental Health closed, our relationship with the VA was never very good. They insisted on approving clients before we saw them, even for first time emergency sessions that we were willing to do for free. We had to attend regular meetings at a VA center 60 miles away, and our therapists ended up having two supervisors. One hated bureaucracies and the other seemed to thrive in one of the biggest bureaucracies in the government. One knew his therapists could empathize with Vietnam veterans far better than he could and the other... well, I'm sure you get the idea. Please read and adhere to the posting rules of Capitol Hill Blue and the additional rules and guidelines for commenting on this column here. If you think a posting violates these rules click "submit spam" and the message will be highlighted in pink for me to review.
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Hal: Thanks for the detail provided for the convenience of the Hon Sarah Palin [R-AK] in preparation for her campaign remarks. OBTW, thanks for the nod concerning the respectful recognition of the Hon John Sidney McCain III [R-AZ] candidate for POTUS; grateful to be able to use his full, given name! Meanwhile, wish you had taken time to mention the US involvement in Viet Nam, including the military conflict, began and continued as a policy of Democrat presidents supervised by Democrat majority Congresses. This correspondent certainly hopes Ms Palin recalls these details when discussing the "anti-wat"[sic] behavior of Weather Underground founder William Ayers, noted academic and Chicago politician.
Hill Country resident
There is no need to use these full names. Please refrain from doing so... (on second thought go ahead and do it, but use of Obama's middle name is not acceptabe here). There isn't a reader here who doesn't see through your attempt to disparage Obama through the use of his middle name. Both McCain and Palin and their surrogates have condemned this.
I will not tolerate any wisenheimer asides from you.
If you notice a typo like anti-wat just point it out and I will correct it.
Keep on topic. This isn't a discussion about how the Vietnam War started and who was responsible.
I will not waste my time with you unless you post according to my rules and guidelines.
Case closed.
Added to column:
Palin, and subsequently Republican pontificaters, are making a big point about the New York Times article "Obama and ’60s Bomber: A Look Into Crossed Paths", studiously ignoring the last two words of the headline and the text which explains that their association was minimal.
Hal, If Sarah Palin was in 2nd grade when Biden was first elected, that means she was still in diapers during the 60's which means she doesn't know squat!
She's just using typical Republican propaganda tactics...trying to distract people with disinformation and/or change the subject.
She it truly transparent as being a total airhead.
BTW, Dometic terrorist? Give me a break! The Oklahoma bomber was a Domestic Terrorist. The leaders of the 60's movement were revolutionaries.
This is important as there may be more revolutionaries in the future most likely labeled "domestic terrorists" so they can be whisked up like the so-called foreign terrorists and hauled off to places like Gitmo.
Obama won't go there, but if we use the accurate term "revolutionaries" we have to logically look at what Ayers and others who used violence, with the intention to blow up things, not people, were revolting against.
I added a bit more to my column about the campus anti-war movement and how my own university was involved first in promoting the war in an official, if secret, way.
Ayers and the Weather Underground weren't trying to use violence to terrorize people. Their methods were the most extreme form of protest. It backfired and led to many people supporting the failed government war policy rather than questioning it.
It was the growing list of casualties, the draft, the peaceful protests, and the obvious fact that we were losing the war, that led to the drastic change in public opinion.
Hal, were Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, John Adams and George Washington Domestic Terrorists or Revolutionaries?
Ok, I hear ya. I am 47 and was a child in the 60's. Lost a cousin in Vietnam. Another came back as someone I never really got to know.
The world looks different to you Hal and I understand. Our family was not in favor of the war, but I can remember by father condemning the violence of the protests.
That being said, I can't wrap my head around a guy who bombed the Pentagon to stop the war. I can't get my head around a man who would say on 9/11/01, no less he is sorry he didn't do more.
But it's not just the way you are downplaying the association. This guy held fundraisers for Obama. Never mind his association with Rezko, "Minister Farakhan" and his Rev Wright, who was the right preacher until he ran for president.
Show me your friends. I'll tell you who you are.
There is no hard evidence Obama and Ayers were or are friends. If there was the Republicans would have found it and publicized it. In fact, no matter what anyone thinks of the New York Times, they usually do a good job of investigative reporting. If Obama and Ayers were more than associates they would have documented it.
Until there is proof positive they could be considered pals, it is a simply wrong to Palin to say they were. If it turns out that they secretly went bowling together or slinked over to each other's houses to watch a ball game and have a few drinks, then Obama has some explaining to do -- not for the friendship, but for the lie about it.
When Ayers wrote this (see "No Regrets for a Love Of Explosives; In a Memoir of Sorts, a War Protester Talks of Life With the Weathermen" link) he shows a lack of understanding of how the bombings hurt, rather than helped, the anti-war cause.
Mr. Ayers, who in 1970 was said to have summed up the Weatherman philosophy as: ''Kill all the rich people. Break up their cars and apartments. Bring the revolution home, kill your parents, that's where it's really at,'' is today distinguished professor of education at the University of Illinois at Chicago. And he says he doesn't actually remember suggesting that rich people be killed or that people kill their parents, but ''it's been quoted so many times I'm beginning to think I did,'' he said. ''It was a joke about the distribution of wealth.''
Personally I am proud of what I did and given my small role don't think I could have done more.
Would I do it again today? I am, and you're reading it.
Did Bill Ayers have the courage of this convictions? Which rich people did he kill? Which houses or apartments or cars did he break up? Did he kill his parents and older brother? Or was he simply advising others to do so in his role as "leader" of a movement or was it actually a joke as he asserts today from his position of responsibility and friend and advisor to the Hon Barack Hussein Obama [D-IL] and candidate for POTUS.
Hill Country resident
"as he asserts today from his position of responsibility and friend and advisor to the Hon Barack Hussein Obama [D-IL] and candidate for POTUS."
"position of responsibility"
"friend and advisor"? ? ? ? ?
Please either support this or retract it.
Irresponsible accusations such as this have no place on this board (or anyplace else for that matter.)
Weather Underground founder William Ayers holds a responsible position in the Dept of Education at UI-Chicago and some allege he is a respected public figure in Chicago politics. Even the NYT alleges he is friendly with the Hon Barack Hussein Obama [D-IL] and may have advised him on matters political. How then are the former comments irresponsible and to be condemned; is the Hon Obama not proud to associate with Mr Ayers?
Hill Country resident
Were any people harmed or killed by Mr. Ayers? If not, how much property damage was done? Was Ayers ever convicted of any criminal charges? I don't have the answers. I suppose I should google it.
Isn't there some possibility that former radical Ayers saw the error of his ways and decided that working within the system is more effective?
-- Kent Shaw
Even McCain has condemned the use of Obama's middle name as dirty politics. No reputable publications are using his middle name. Do not use it here.
It is irresponsible, worse, untruthful to say someone is palling around with someone when there is no evidence top that effect. Saying they are or were friendly isn't the same as saying they are or were friends.
The New York Times did not say Ayers gave him political advice, in fact they said "The suggestion that Ayers was a political adviser to Obama or someone who shaped his political views is patently false,” said Ben LaBolt, a campaign spokesman."
Palin and other Republicans are using the association between Ayers and Obama to further convey the impression that Obama is not one of us.
This meshes perfectly with the theme repeated in other ways that McCain/Palin puts "country first", that God willing McCain/Palin will win. You don't have to be a weatherman to see which way they want the wind to blow...
Well that settles it for me Hal!
The New York Times did not say Ayers gave him political advice, in fact they said "The suggestion that Ayers was a political adviser to Obama or someone who shaped his political views is patently false,” said Ben LaBolt, a campaign spokesman."
A quote from a mouthpiece for the Hon Barack H Obama [D-IL] certainly dispels an allegations of friendship or collusion between the Senator and his colleague William Ayers.
Hill Country resident
"alleges he is friendly" "may have advised"
So, because a person is friendly with Obama the latter is charged with complicity in the crimes of the former, crimes which were never adjudicated in a court of law and which occurred 40 years ago.
And because that same person may have advised Obama on matters political he is an advisor. Hell, then so am I, and I have the email to prove I sent Obama political advice. Can you prove that Ayers did likewise or are you just going on what's being said around the internet. And I would raise the same question with the NY Times.
These are the sort of tactics that Karl Rove loves and approves of. In this case guilt by minimal association. You certainly have a right to post things like that, just as I and many others here have a right AND an obligation to question anything unseemly, which is what I believe your post was.
Did you save in your e-mail account the "thank you note" from the campaign organization of the Hon Barack Hussein Obama [D-IL] for the political advice you volunteered? Meanwhile why is the use of Mr Obama's given name proscribed here?
Hill Country resident
Actually, yes. It is plain to see that you have absorbed yet another Republican tactic, that of misdirection, as you have deflected the discussion from politics to a non sequitor abiut what's on my hard drive.
Cannot answer your second question. It's not my we site.
Last chance, keep using Obama's middle name and your entire posts will be deleted. The reasons should be obvious, even McCain understands.
Sherry, there's a few things you should know...
1) The worst report includes that Obama 'launched' his political career at a 'meet and greet' coffee at Ayers' house, a few blocks from his own... although the local rabbi's wife said that *their* house was actually the first. Whatever the case, they were not 'fundraisers'... The only record of fundraising from Bill Ayers is that he contributed $200 to Obama's campaign - that's it.
2) Bill Ayers was indeed a prime mover in the Weather Underground; but ALL of the actions they claim responsibility for were only against *property* - they purposefully called each site in advance to make sure the places were evacuated of people before causing any damage to government property. The one incident that caused a death was done by someone *before* they became associated with WU - The FBI of course tried to associate it with WU themselves, they were using every tactic they could to stamp out opposition to the war (including, incidentally, kidnapping and assassination)
3) I think you've got something backwards... bombing the Pentagon (or any government building) is indeed a logical target, when opposing the government. It may be an act of war, but it is more logical than attacking a public civilian target - that would be much harder to fathom (except to say that an attack on a civilian target truly is terrorism). Actually, though, it is also hard to believe they actually called ahead to make sure no *people* were harmed, only property - but it was their saving grace in the end, as that is one of the main reasons the government decided to not prosecute anyone in the WU.
4) His words were "I am sorry *we* didn't do more", when asked if the peace movement, as a whole, was effective - those words were clearly talking about everyone in the peace movement, including me (I was only 13 at the time of Kent State, but I did what I could - and I agree with that part of what he said, I am very sorry we didn't do more to stop wars such as Vietnam - and now, the current Iraq war). In a completely separate part of the interview, he says he's not sorry he participated in bombing government property. The two were conflated together in the lead paragraph, when in fact they were separate ideas.
In any event, Obama does not claim him as a 'pal' or even as a 'friend', and states that he thinks those actions were detestable.
As for determining someone's character from their friends, how about McCain's friend G Gordon Liddy?
Here's a link:
http://www.theseminal.com/2008/04/18/time-for-mcca...
here's an excerpt:
"Notorious Watergate burglar G. Gordon Liddy is a McCain supporter. In fact, Liddy, who at one time plotted to murder a journalist, has been donating money to McCain for the past decade. Liddy calls McCain “a good, personal friend“. McCain has appeared on Liddy’s radio show. and McCain’s website provides call-in info to Liddy’s show, asking supporters to contact the ex-con.
Liddy didn’t exactly turn squeaky clean when he emerged from prison. In the mid-1990s, he instructed listeners about the best way to kill federal agents"
Note - I wasn't sure about that last part, so I checked to make sure:
In a press conference responding to the controversy (Associated Press, 4/25/95), Liddy clarified his advice by noting that shooting a federal agent in the head might not be the ideal plan: "So you shoot twice to the body, center of mass, and if that does not work, then shoot to the groin area."
Excuse me, what were you saying about what you could tell about McCain from his friends?
This discussion has devolved to the level of adolescence or childish discourse. Please, people. Grow the hell up.
-- Kent Shaw
Kent, or anybody else, please flag any posts you feel break the posting rules or don't live up to the guidelines (HERE) by clicking "submit spam".
Reality writes:3) I think you've got something backwards... bombing the Pentagon (or any government building) is indeed a logical target, when opposing the government. It may be an act of war, but it is more logical than attacking a public civilian target - that would be much harder to fathom (except to say that an attack on a civilian target truly is terrorism). Actually, though, it is also hard to believe they actually called ahead to make sure no *people* were harmed, only property - but it was their saving grace in the end, as that is one of the main reasons the government decided to not prosecute anyone in the WU.
You have got to be kidding me that the Pentagon was a "logical" target.
And as for Liddy, he is a wacko for sure. On the othet hand there are a ton of so called journalists, I wouldn't mind seeing Liddy or someone take down. Where do I send the list?
When I something to protest, I write my reprsentatives. As Hal pointed out, people turned against a very good cause because the really stupid people in charge of the good cause created violence in the name of peace. How insane.
Ayers is a terrorist, no less than Al Qaeda. He needs to be behind bars. And if he was my neighbor, let's just say we wouldn't be sharing coffee.
Lieberman asks God to help Palin saying that "with your help and God's help" she will be the next vice president of the United States. This on TV a few minutes ago as he introduces Palin at a Florida rally.
"With God's help?"
Then Palin invokes God too:
"God bless America, you guys get it! Thank you!"
What is it that "you guys get"? That God is on the aside of the McCain/Palin ticket? What is the message if God is on their side, which religious figure is supporting the other side?
And now she's lauding a Florida baseball team... next thing I expect she'll ask God to help them too...
And then she quotes Obama about air raiding villages in Afghanistan, but I swear every time I hear it I think she's saying aerating.
God, she says, also gave Forida natural resources, and thus apparently wants them to "drill, baby, drill".
Now she gets back to The New York Times. Regarding her not telling Katie Couric what papers she reads she interjects "I was just trying to keep Tina Fey in business just giving her more information" and says her answer was flippant --
Then she goes into the NYT article and talks about Barack's "friends from Chicago"...
She says one of Obama's earliest supporters was Bill Ayers, a domestic terrorist...
She says an Obama spokesman said they were certainly "friendly" - but precision in language isn't Palin's strong suit because if it was she'd know this doesn't make people friends....
She is clearly showing that a new tactic is to link Ayers with Obama.
The crowd chants USA repeatedly...
"There is only one man in this campaign that has really fought for you... and that man is John McCain."
That's the closing, remind everyone of POW McCain.
Hal -- wasn't it John McCain in 2000 that said in reference to GW Bush's lies and attacks....
"if all you run is negative attack ads you don't have much of a vision for the future, or you're not ready to articulate it."
I bet since he's so old and obviously suffering from some form of dementia that he doesn't even remember saying it.
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As we said back in the day,
Submitted by 33rdSt on October 6, 2008 - 12:02am.As we said back in the day, Hal, Right On!
Sadly, though, as we also knew back in the day, the folks who didn't want us thinking too much about what our leaders were doing in Washington, jingoism and pseudo-patriotic pablum were better than actual analysis and real thought! Sarah (is it okay if I call you Sarah, Governor??) seems to have picked up that lesson from history!!
The Hyperbole coming from
Submitted by Klaus Hergeschimmer on October 6, 2008 - 12:34am.The Hyperbole coming from the McNuggets Camp from his Retarded Barracuda Attack B*tch is so outragegous even some slightly higher grade Joe-Six packs could see it's BS. The underwhelming lack of Grey Matter that Palindum exhibits is beyond all rationality.
"McCain wasn't there. He was
Submitted by ekaton on October 6, 2008 - 2:18am."McCain wasn't there. He was being the good soldier, aviator in his case, following the family tradition, no doubt believing in the rightness of the cause."
Yes, while dropping 2000 pound iron fragmentation bombs on innocent people. What a hero! What a role model!
Kent Shaw
And going back to his
Submitted by Hal Brown on October 6, 2008 - 6:30am.And going back to his officer quarters for a hot meal on a SAFE aircraft carrier. This was a luxury few of the grunts I knew had. They also often saw the bodies of the people they killed. Those brave (or foolhardy) enough to actually aim their M16's saw what it looked like when 5.56mm bullets ripped through them.
I don't mean to diminish the dangers faced by pilots, as many were killed. You can read the statistics here.
The only pilots in our vets program flew helicopters, and they also saw combat up close.
Yes indeed he enjoyed his
Submitted by Harve3 on October 7, 2008 - 10:44am.Yes indeed he enjoyed his office quarters and hot meals on a safe carrier except that time his A-4 was struck by that ground-air missile and augured into a rice patty after which the Hon John Sidney McCain III [R-AZ] then spent several years in solitary confinement in the notorious Hanoi Hilton whilst his several fractures remained untreated a fate few "grunts" confronted and certainly amounted to seeing combat up close.
Hill Country resident
Do not think that referring
Submitted by Hal Brown on October 7, 2008 - 5:11pm.Do not think that referring to McCain as you have will permit you to refer to Obama using his middle name. Do not play games here. If you want responses to your posts abide by the rules and guidelines.
I agree that being a POW was a horrendous experience. I didn't mean to play that down. However, it makes no sense to compare which was worse, being in combat on the ground or being in a POW camp. Both were bad in different ways.
If Sarah Palin is going to use Willaim Ayer's anti-war activities, I would hope she understands the ultimate results in human cost of that war in some detail. The point of my column was Palin not demonstrating any indication she has an in depth, let alone a cursory, knowledge of what the country was like during the Vietnam War.
For example, she should know the following:
Most of the Air Force and Navy casualties presumably came when aircraft were shot down. Obviously whether flying or on the ground, combat was dangerous and many died in all the services. However common sense would suggest that the reason pilots and crew who ended up as POWs did so because they were shot down over enemy territory. The POW numbers of Army and Marines (granting some of the later were pilots) suggests those who fought in ground combat didn't get captured that often. But some 52,000 of them died of the 58,217 total.
Left to right: No. served Killed Wounded Missing
Force
Corps
Guard